Irredentism in the Balkans

[Hrvoje]

[Thread split from: Pan-Slavism Versus Pan-Germanism]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The Croats, or Roman Catholic Serbs, number 1,800,000

Oh well, I may start buying it as well

[Menydh]

What exactly is the problem there?

[Hrvoje]

The Croats are not Roman Catholic Serbs or the off-shot of Serbdom as implied.

The author (Anglo?) probably used late Greater Serbian ideologists and expansionists
such are Vuk Karadzic, Ilija Garasanin, Jovan Cvijic and Nikola Stojanovic
for his sources.

[Menydh]

Yes, there lies a mistake. At first I thought that he meant Croats and Serbs who are Catholic.

[Banat]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Yes, there lies a mistake. At first I thought that he meant Croats and Serbs who are Catholic.

There isn't a mistake, Mynydd, your first presumption was correct - they are only listed together. Hrvoje is wrong both in his presumtion and interpretation.

It is not at all implied that Croats were an "off-shot of Serbdom". The sentence "The Croats, or Roman Catholic Serbs, number 1,800,000" means only that in the number of 1,800,000, Croats and Roman-Catholic Serbs are summed up, not that Croats and Roman-Catholic Serbs were the same, and it is best seen in one of the sentences that followed: "In Bosnia there are 434,000 Roman Catholic Croats, 825,000 Orthodox Serbs, and over 600,000 Bosniaks, or Moslem Serbs", where Croats aren't called Roman-Catholic Serbs.

Austrian-Hungarian statistics made a clear difference between Croats, Roman-Catholic Serbs and "Greek"-Orthodox Serbs. It needs to be checked, but I think that those Roman-Catholic Serbs weren't more numerous than 250,000. They are listed together with Croats here, because religious structure of the population was presented. The only problem that lies there is that vast majority of the descendants of those "Roman-Catholic Serbs" today declare as Croats, so every mentioning about earlier statistics, censi and self-declaration of their ancestors is mostly labeled today as "Great-Serbian propaganda and expansionism".

All in all, I find the text correct and unbiased.

[Menydh]

Banat, I thought so. I've seen one member of Stirpes profiled both as Serb and as Catholic.

Anyway, what's calling my attention of pan-nationalisms is that I am somehow strange to them, since I don't belong to the Germanic or the Slavic groups. I still have to see one well defined and well structured system for either pan-Germanism or pan-Slavism, and loose as they are they seem to me more of a potential problem than anything else.

Here there is another interesting article that I've found on pan-nationalisms: European Tribal Nationalism.

As I go disectioning these pan-nationalisms, they look to me more like small globalisms which are likely to pose a problem both for national identities and for any chances for Europe to have a future.

Anyway, the good thing about it is that those of us who belong to the Western fringe of Europe don't have to feel allegiance to the Slavic or the Germanic group. You could say that to us they are both Eastern.. at least east of us. So we are free to choose sides, or to stay away from it.

[Zrinski]

There is a mistake. As Hrvoje said Croats are not offshot of Serbian nation nor the other way around. Croats and Serbs although both Slavs and related in language are not and never were the same people. In this article it is implied that Croats are "catholic Serbs".

Quote: "The Croats, or Roman Catholic Serbs, number 1,800,000, and their Orthodox brothers are 1,100,000 in number."

As seen distinction has been made on Croats who are supposedly "Roman Catholic Serbs" and "their Orthodox brothers" Serbs. It does not says "Croats, and Roman Catholic Serbs"...it say Croats, or Roman Catholic Serbs...impliying Croats are "Roman Catholic Serbs". Distinction is also made furthermore where it mentiones "their Orthodox brothers" or Serbs.

Furthermore there is no such thing as "Catholic Serb" nor there was a such thing in Austria-Hungary at that time.
Some of early Serbian royal families were catholic long before that...in 14th-15th century but they are now long gone being converted to Orthodox faith. By 19th(I'd say more like 17-18th) century Catholic Serbs or Orthodox Croats were a relic of the past.

[Menydh]

Well, apart from that detail, the article is about tribal nationalism in Europe, and I thought that it would be interesting to make an historical disection of these tribal nationalisms, which might help us to analyze the consequences of it in a future.

I never expected it to become another Balkanic war. I hope it will not.

[Banat]

It's not quite the point of the text, but I'll give a quick answer only to this one:

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Furthermore there is no such thing as "Catholic Serb" nor there was a such thing in Austria-Hungary at that time.(...) By 19th(I'd say more like 17-18th) century Catholic Serbs or Orthodox Croats were a relic of the past.

According to Austrian-Hungarian statistics of 2nd half of 19th century (1870 AD), in all Hungary (Croatia and Slavonia included) there were 2,405,700 "Serbo-Croats" (or: Serbs and Croats), out of which there were 1,012,923 Serbs: 942,923 "Greek-Eastern" and 70,000 Catholic.

I never expected it to become another Balkanic war. [IMG]/images/smilies/stirpes1/tongue01.gif[/IMG] I hope it will not. [IMG]/images/smilies/stirpes1/wink0001.gif[/IMG]

You can never expect such things: they are always a surprise. But don't worry, it won't. Not only that the detail couldn't be further from the main point, which is pan-nationalism, but it also implies no such thing. They are only summed up, being of the same language and cultural heritage, and hence the word 'brothers' describing the Orthodoxes of the same origin in Hungary.

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The Croats, or Roman Catholic Serbs, number 1,800,000

Sad,but true.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Banat

According to Austrian-Hungarian statistics of 2nd half of 19th century (1870 AD), in all Hungary (Croatia and Slavonia included) there were 2,405,700 "Serbo-Croats" (or: Serbs and Croats), out of which there were 1,012,923 Serbs: 942,923 "Greek-Eastern" and 70,000 Catholic.

There never were anything like "Catholic Serbs". Hungarians used to deisgnate "Bunjevci" as "Catholic Serbs" for some reason only known to them, but the fact is they never were Serbs nor are today....only Croats and recently a part of them designates themselves as separate ethnictiy "Bunjevci" under political pressure from Belgrade.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I never expected it to become another Balkanic war. I hope it will not.

It won't...if some people stop being apologetic towards the present chauvinism and revisonism in the article regarding Croats.

but it also implies no such thing.

Actually it does. As I have shown you.

They are only summed up, being of the same language and cultural heritage, and hence the word 'brothers' describing the Orthodoxes of the same origin in Hungary.

They are not summed up....it's clear Austrians and Hugnarians made distinction between. Furthemore we never had the "same language", very similar, only part of the same diasystem yes.

Originally Posted by Slavni

Sad,but true.

What is this suppose to mean?

[Melenios]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Furthemore we never had the "same language", very similar, only part of the same diasystem yes.

How do you say "we never had the same language" in serbian and how in Croatian then?

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

There never were anything like "Catholic Serbs". Hungarians used to deisgnate "Bunjevci" as "Catholic Serbs" for some reason only known to them, but the fact is they never were Serbs nor are today....only Croats and recently a part of them designates themselves as separate ethnictiy "Bunjevci" under political pressure from Belgrade.

Bunjevci are Croats,that's true.Point of thread are Catholic-Croatized Serbs of Dalmatia,Slavonia,Dubrovnik,Lika...

[Hrvoje]

Originally Posted by Slavni

Point of thread are Catholic-Croatized Serbs of Dalmatia,Slavonia,Dubrovnik,Lika...

Myth.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Slavni

Point of thread are Catholic-Croatized Serbs of Dalmatia,Slavonia,Dubrovnik,Lika...

There weren't such thing as "catholic-croatized serbs" anywhere in Croatian regions. Thats a myth fabricated by serbian chavuinists.

It's as if I would go on and say that Serbs in Croatia(Lika, Dalmatia and parts of Slavonia) are "Orthodox-serbicized Croats"....

Originally Posted by Melenios

How do you say "we never had the same language" in serbian and how in Croatian then?

I don't speak Serbian.
Do you even know what 'diasystem' is?

[Menydh]

Split and moved temporarily to Atrivm until it's moved finally to the South Slavic ethnic forums.

Please, keep it civic.

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

There weren't such thing as "catholic-croatized serbs" anywhere in Croatian regions. Thats a myth fabricated by serbian chavuinists.

It's as if I would go on and say that Serbs in Croatia(Lika, Dalmatia and parts of Slavonia) are "Orthodox-serbicized Croats"....



I don't speak Serbian.
Do you even know what 'diasystem' is?

The great Nikola Tesla and Rudjer Boskovic were Croats?