Irredentism in the Balkans

[Defensor Fidei]

Originally Posted by Melenios

How do you say "we never had the same language" in serbian and how in Croatian then?

Actually we have the same language - Croatian

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Nikola Tesla Serb...by origin Vlach. Rudjer Boskovic Croat by father and Italian by mother.

...by origin Vlach? Vlach was Venetian name for Orthodox people.
More about Dubrovnik:
"In Dubrovnik, the main language ever since the olden days was Serbian which was spoken by commoners, as well as by nobles - in the households, as well as in the municipal administration", wrote the Croatian historian Natko Nodilo.

Natko Nodilo was, along with Franjo Rački, the founder of Croatian history. He was characterized by his loyalty to truth. Nodilo made conclusions only when he knew that the sources were trustworthy and he did not give in to pressures of Croatian statesmen of 19th century who wanted the academics to adapt their works to "historical proofs" of Croatian presence (linguistically and nationally) in the various regions. These regions included Dalmatia, Slavonia, Srem (a region just north-west of Belgrade), Lika, Kordun, Banija, Herzegovina, Bosnia, Baranja and Dubrovnik.

Natko Nodilo proved his loyalty to the truth in his work "Prvi ljetopisci i davna historiografija dubrovačka" (The First Chroniclers and Early Historiography of Dubrovnik - JAZU, Zagreb, 1883. notebook 65, pages 92-128) where he stated the next: "In Dubrovnik, the main language ever since the olden days was Serbian which was spoken by commoners, as well as by nobles - in the households, as well as in the municipal administration and Serbian was a language used in judicial matters as well."

Nodilo was correct, although we cannot find anyone in Croatia today who would dare support this statement of his. If it was admitted that the inhabitants of Dubrovnik were Serbian Catholics, all foundations of official Croatian history would be destroyed, and with that the claim of "historical right" of Croatian state to rule this city inhabited by Serbs and their cultural patrimony.

Dubrovnik's documents reveal that the official language of the Republic was Latin, but besides Latin, there is also a domestic language sometimes mentioned as Serbian, sometimes Illyrian, sometimes Slavic and Vlach but never Croatian.

The fact that the inhabitants of Dubrovnik were Roman Catholics, like Croats, does not tell us anything about how related they were. The issue is the nature of expanding Catholicism in Serbian lands; on the Adriatic coast, as well as in its background. For that, we can be thankful to the domination of Vatican, Venice, Hungary, and Austria in this part of Balkan Peninsula. We do not know whether anyone thoroughly studied the historical phenomenon that only Serbs were forbidden from practicing Catholicism!

This would be an attractive and important study due to the fact that the Catholics of Dalmatia, Slavonia, Herzegovina, Bosnia, Dubrovnik and other Serbian regions, saw themselves as Serbs up until the first decades of 20th century. They all became "Croats" over time and now there are not any among them who identify with Serbian nation.

The Institutions of Catholic Church would not have succeeded in converting the Serbian populations to Catholicism, and then to Croatianize them if they did not have the help of the above mentioned Catholic states: with pressure and privileges, and also through educational, cultural and informational activities. These states would, in order to turn the Catholic and Orthodox Serbs into Croats, use raw military and police power which reached its peak during both world wars when these efforts were helped even by Germany. The populace of Dubrovnik resisted being labeled as Croats for a long time because they simply did not want to conform to such a conversion only because they were Catholics. After all, many Germans, Italians, Spaniards, French and other nations are also Catholics but nobody would dare to call them Croats!

The populace of Dubrovnik did not allow itself to lose its national identity just because of religion. They fought for Serbdom publicly – with literature, education, printing press, as well as by activities with various societal organizations. They did that even though they had Vatican against them, as well as Venetian, Hungarian, Austrian, German and Croatian governments; in each period they resisted one or more of these mentioned governments – sometimes many at once.

There is an interesting example of an attempt to Croatianize the populace of Dubrovnik not so long ago – in 1901. The Croatian statesmen worked for that goal years before this attempt. Among others, they had their eyes on the “Institute of Saint Geronimo“ in Rome, which was established and financed by Dubrovnik’s Serbs. Pope Leo XIII was convinced that the inhabitants of Dubrovnik were (in the beginning of 20th century) ready to be initiated into Croatdom, and so by his order the above mentioned Institute was renamed into “Croatian Institute of Saint Geronimo“.

The Catholics of Dubrovnik intensely protested against this decision of Pope Leo XIII. The Pope backed off. At the time, he feared the longer-lasting controversy in further discussion about the essence of Serbdom and Croatdom, as well as Orthodoxy and Catholicism. He sent a letter of apology to Dubrovnik’s Catholics informing them that the word “Croatian“ would be taken out of the name of the Institute. Even after the apology, Pope feared that a public discussion about the nationality and language of Dubrovnik’s inhabitants might develop and so he addressed them as “Catholic Serbs“ in a telegram sent to them in 1903.

The letter and telegram of Pope Leo XIII sent to the city of Dubrovnik was published in the Serbian publication “Dubrovnik“, but those publications were sought out and destroyed by Croatian government, and so there is a question whether there are any other copies of this publication left besides those in the Vatican’s archives.

The Croatianization of Dubrovnik’s Serbs and Serbs from other regions was often done by theft of, among other things, lyric and heroic national songs which were gathered by Catholic Serbs, and even by Catholic priests. Those songs were published by “Croatian Motherland“ as “Croatian National Songs“. This behavior of “Croatian Motherland“ editors inspired a Dubrovnik Catholic (Serb) Lujo Vojinovic, the brother of poet Ivo Vojinovic, to respond in Serbian publication “Dubrovnik“ (1897, number 35) with sharp criticism of “Motherland’s“ actions, prophetically claiming the disapperance of Catholic Serbs, because of Croatian genocide to be committed against them. He ends his article with these words:

“Serbs over the Drina River! And that codeword is blindly listened to and it will be listened to until the final day which must come, a final day when a great cataclysm will destroy all the artistic fences, or... or, ohh, destroy the final bastions of Serbian national culture and that is when the Croats will be satisfied!

Herostrates (the one who set fire to Artemis’ temple in Ephes) will mention Cliomuses the protector of history.“
Source: Book of Serbian Heritage

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Banat

, Slavni.

At this moment there are app. 20,000 Bačka Bunjevci gathered around Blaško Gabrić and Matica Bunjevačka, who insist on their national uniqueness and brotherhood with Serbs, and fiercely fight Croatisation of Bunjevci.

At this moment they are insisting in adding Bunjevački language to the list of official languages in Voivodina, since Croatian is already there, and in having their own school system. Needless to say, Croatians strongly object it, saying that there is no such thing as "Bunjevački language", and that those actions are the continuation of oppression and denying rights of Croats in Serbia.

Edit: I forgot to add: on the other hand, more than 30,000 Bačka Bunjevci do declare as Croats. In Subotica, the situation is 50-50 more-less.

And as for Dubrovnik, they were not "Catholicised", since many of them weren't Orthodox in the first place. Which, of course, didn't prevent them to declare as they felt it was appropriate. The same goes for Cavtat.

Sorry for my mistake about Bunjevci.I don't know them much as I know Catholics from Hercegovina.

[Hrvoje]

Source: Book of Serbian Heritage

I am not interested in myths, lies and one sided pamphlets with no historical importance
but rather in common historical facts which are completely absent there and thus makes it nothing other but simple political pamphlet.
Petty attempts to portray everything of importance from Croatian history as Serbian, while the rest is of genocidal Ustasha's ultimately disgusts and insults me, knowing what have you done to "Dubrovnik's Serbian heritage” in 1991 makes it even worse and more despicable.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Slavni

...by origin Vlach? Vlach was Venetian name for Orthodox people.

Vlach was and still is a name for indigenous balkan people. Even today there are pockets of Vlachs in Macedonia, Greece, Albania and also in Croatia(in Istria). Once they spread over whole region and were based especially in today Southern Serbia and Macedonia.

Most Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia today are actually Vlachs, coverts to Serbian Orthodox Church and thus converts to "serbdom". These Vlachs were in service to Ottoman Empire as border jumpers and scout...but soon, since they basically worked for anyone that would pay them, Habsburg's used them and allowed them settlement in Croatia - 'Statuta Valachorum'(Vlach Statue) -> http://pubwww.srce.hr/hpm/p0203003.htm

Tesla is undoubtably of Vlach origin.

More about Dubrovnik:
Source: Book of Serbian Heritage

Do you really think that posting serbian chauvinist-revisonist propaganda will do you any good and advance you in this "debate"? Funny....

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Vlach was and still is a name for indigenous balkan people. Even today there are pockets of Vlachs in Macedonia, Greece, Albania and also in Croatia(in Istria). Once they spread over whole region and were based especially in today Southern Serbia and Macedonia.

Most Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia today are actually Vlachs, coverts to Serbian Orthodox Church and thus converts to "serbdom". These Vlachs were in service to Ottoman Empire as border jumpers and scout...but soon, since they basically worked for anyone that would pay them, Habsburg's used them and allowed them settlement in Croatia - 'Statuta Valachorum'(Vlach Statue) -> http://pubwww.srce.hr/hpm/p0203003.htm

Tesla is undoubtably of Vlach origin.




Do you really think that posting serbian chauvinist-revisonist propaganda will do you any good and advance you in this "debate"? Funny....

You mean that Vlachs.Only Vlachs in Serbia lives near Romanian border and speak language close to Romanian.Tesla origins are from Old Hercegovina,one of oldest Serbian lands.

Natko Nodilo "Prvi ljetopisci i davna historiografija dubrovačka" (The First Chroniclers and Early Historiography of Dubrovnik - JAZU, Zagreb, 1883. notebook 65, pages 92-128),is Croatian history book,what Serbian propaganda you are talking about?

[Vojvoda]

Originally Posted by Slavni

You mean that Vlachs.Only Vlachs in Serbia lives near Romanian border and speak language close to Romanian.Tesla origins are from Old Hercegovina,one of oldest Serbian lands.

Natko Nodilo "Prvi ljetopisci i davna historiografija dubrovačka" (The First Chroniclers and Early Historiography of Dubrovnik - JAZU, Zagreb, 1883. notebook 65, pages 92-128),is Croatian history book,what Serbian propaganda you are talking about?

Don't bother trying to argue with him. He's just another catholic Serb in denial

[Hrvoje]

Originally Posted by Slavni

You mean that Vlachs.Only Vlachs in Serbia lives near Romanian border and speak language close to Romanian.Tesla origins are from Old Hercegovina,one of oldest Serbian lands.

No, Vlachs live even in Istria, Croatia.

Natko Nodilo "Prvi ljetopisci i davna historiografija dubrovačka" (The First Chroniclers and Early Historiography of Dubrovnik - JAZU, Zagreb, 1883. notebook 65, pages 92-128),is Croatian history book,what Serbian propaganda you are talking about?

No, it is not Croatian history book it is Yugoslavian history book.

[Banat]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Most Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia today are actually Vlachs

Some undoubtedly are. As are in Serbia proper, too. And the situation is the same with Muslims and Croats of those areas, too.

But most of them, or even some great numbers - no way. It is exaggerated for political purposes only.

Habsburg's used them and allowed them settlement in Croatia - 'Statuta Valachorum'(Vlach Statue)

I wonder if the strongest argument in this "Vlach" theory was Statuta Valachorum, or there are some other serious indications as well.

Tesla is undoubtably of Vlach origin.

Yes, but in what amount, it is impossible to determine. He was, of course, of Slavic (Serbian), and of Illyrian origin too. And who can tell, perhaps some other peoples of other ethnicity are found in his genealogy: Croats, Bulgars, Gypsies etc.

What matters most is that he was a world class intellectual who was able to tell who and what he was, and he considered himself a Serb of Serbian origin. Quite a few Serbian distinguished persons of 19th and 20th century weren't Serbs by origin, and it is something that is not hidden. But Tesla wasn't one of them.

[Hrvoje]

I agree that pre-Slavic population of Balkans, whatever they were referred to as, played the most important part of Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian ethnogenesiss.
The assimilation process continued on as late as in 19th century.

Tesla was Serbian, it is completely irrelevant what were his distant ancestors,
specially if we look for them before romantic nationalism that occurred in 19th century.
Before that, we can not speak of modern sense of ethnic belonging
as we know it today.

The only question considering Tesla can be is he to be considered as Serbian scientist,
because he received all his education in Croatia, Austro-Hungary and in USA,
and was sponsored by them.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Slavni

You mean that Vlachs.Only Vlachs in Serbia lives near Romanian border and speak language close to Romanian.

Today yes. In ages before Vlachs lived all across Balkans...especially in area of southern Serbia, Montenegro and northern Albania. There were pockets of them in Bosnia and Dalmatia as well. Today there are only minor communities in Albania, Macedonia, Croatia and Greece. Aromanian is even recognized as one of official languages in Macedonia(so called "FYROM"). Istro-Romanian(Croatia) is recognized and protected as endangered language.

Tesla origins are from Old Hercegovina,one of oldest Serbian lands.

Herzegovina is not "serbian land".

Natko Nodilo "Prvi ljetopisci i davna historiografija dubrovačka" (The First Chroniclers and Early Historiography of Dubrovnik - JAZU, Zagreb, 1883. notebook 65, pages 92-128),is Croatian history book,what Serbian propaganda you are talking about?

I am talking about about twisting the facts and making them appear they say something they do not. The article you posted is blatant seriban propaganda. May I remind you that Duborvnik people never called their language Serbian nor they recognized themselves as Serbs.

Ante Starcevic thought that the original people of Dubrovnik were Latins(group close to Vlachs) who were "croatized"...I share his opinion. The fact is that Dubrovnik people by 15th and 16th century started recognizing themselves as Croats and British historians[?] wrote of Dubrovnik(Ragusa) ships bearing chequered Croatian CoA flags.

Originally Posted by Banat

Some undoubtedly are. As are in Serbia proper, too. And the situation is the same with Muslims and Croats of those areas, too.

Exactly. The point is that if it wasn't for Serbian Orthodox Church those people would be Croats today.

But most of them, or even some great numbers - no way. It is exaggerated for political purposes only.

Yes most of them. Nothing is exaggerated...in fact this factual evdence is very much suppressed for some time now.

I wonder if the strongest argument in this "Vlach" theory was Statuta Valachorum, or there are some other serious indications as well.

Strongest argument no, but strongest factual evidence most definately.

Yes, but in what amount, it is impossible to determine. He was, of course, of Slavic (Serbian), and of Illyrian origin too. And who can tell, perhaps some other peoples of other ethnicity are found in his genealogy: Croats, Bulgars, Gypsies etc.

His surname is of Vlach origin.

What matters most is that he was a world class intellectual who was able to tell who and what he was, and he considered himself a Serb of Serbian origin. Quite a few Serbian distinguished persons of 19th and 20th century weren't Serbs by origin, and it is something that is not hidden. But Tesla wasn't one of them.

I never disputed the fact Tesla considered himself Serb. In fact I don't know what he has with this debate in first place...

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Vojvoda

Don't bother trying to argue with him. He's just another catholic Serb in denial

I'll not.I just dont understand why they deny Serbian heritage,they should be proud for that.Bosnian muslims too.It's our shame to have brothers like some of them.

[Menydh]

I was about to translate a couple of articles from the latest issue from the magazine of the Identitarians from TyP, dedicated to Serbia. But hey.. coming from ..uh... Catholic Spain (even if they are.. ).. who knows? Oh dear!

See you in a few weeks.

[Zrinski]

You Spaniards are also Serbs...a long lost tribe.

[Menydh]

By substratum, we are anything BUT nomadic.

[Banat]

And speaking of Roman-Catholics, I've just found out that in 1953 census in Yugoslavia, even under the greatest anti-Serbian pressure, those "rare relics from the past" - Roman-Catholic Serbs - still appeared. 8,813 Roman-Catholics nationally declared as Serbs.