What do you think of other Slavic nations?

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Slavni

Robert Graves-,,Celtic Myths and Legends'' read it and you'll find that Celts origins are on Karpati and Krim.

I'm a trained archaeologist. I do occasionally read various mythological compendia, but have learnt to distinguish Ancient myths about the Celts from Modern myths.

By the Carpathians [at their western extremity], yes. On the Crimea - no. The Celts did spread their influence eastwards towards Moldova, but didn't make a lasting impression there, and certainly did not originate in the region.

Are you talking of the Cimmerians [Kimmertsy]? THere is NO connection between this ancient [what - VI B. do N.E.?] and the 6th Century A.D. Cymru. Modern Welsh Cymru < Primitive Welsh *Combroges.

The Cimbri of the Germanic North [possibly Jutland] also are claimed as a link in this fanciful chain. But this is also highly unlikely. THey may have had a Celtic connection [there has been attempts to construct an etymology of their name as the "Slavers" or "Slave-Takers" through an old Irish word, but this remains speculation], but a Pontic one is highly doubtful.

The identity of the Cimmerians will remain a puzzle, but it's most likely that they were yet another manifestation of that general Skythian, Sarmatian, Alanic, Iranian ethnocultural and linguistic phenomenon of the Euxine hinterland. Curiously, they are also suggested to be the prototype for the Russky word Kumir, and given the presence of very early Iranian loans in Common Slavonic, it is reasonable to suggest such an identification.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

The Cimbri of the Germanic North [possibly Jutland] also are claimed as a link in this fanciful chain. But this is also highly unlikely. THey may have had a Celtic connection [there has been attempts to construct an etymology of their name as the "Slavers" or "Slave-Takers" through an old Irish word, but this remains speculation], but a Pontic one is highly doubtful.

Interesting. I haven't seen the name Cimbri associated with an Old Irish word for "Slavers", but rather I saw it associated with Brythonic names - Cymri (companions or tribesmen) from which the name Cymru is derived, as well as Cumbria which is also associated with it.
Actually, there are several factors which hint at a Celtic origin for the Cimbri. For a start, it has been argued that their neighbours the Ambrones were also Celts despite generally being classed as a Germanic tribe.
Possibly an even stronger hintias the name of the Cimbri leader during their migrations south between 113BC and 101BC. The king at that time was called "Boiorix", an indisputably Celtic name: the rix element meaning king, as I'm sure you are aware. Thus the name (rather strangely perhaps) translates as "King of the Boii". Cato tells us that the Boii were subdivided into 112 seperate family clans and were a well known Celtic tribe.

All circumstantial of course, but suggestive nonetheless.
That there were Celts in Denmark at some point in time is not unlikely, considering the existence of the Gundestrup cauldron.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Interesting. I haven't seen the name Cimbri associated with an Old Irish word for "Slavers", but rather I saw it associated with Brythonic names - Cymri (companions or tribesmen) from which the name Cymru is derived, as well as Cumbria which is also associated with it.

THe dates for the creation of the British words are far too late to have any connection whatsoever with the migrating hordes of the last centuries B.C. Do your bestest to combat this ridiculously oldfashioned and simplistic idea whenever you come across it!

Actually, there are several factors which hint at a Celtic origin for the Cimbri. For a start, it has been argued that their neighbours the Ambrones were also Celts despite generally being classed as a Germanic tribe.

You;ll have to elaborate on that one. "The Cimbri were Celts because the Ambrones were. And the Ambrones were because ..." ?
And what about the Teutones?

Possibly an even stronger hintias the name of the Cimbri leader during their migrations south between 113BC and 101BC. The king at that time was called "Boiorix", an indisputably Celtic name: the rix element meaning king, as I'm sure you are aware. Thus the name (rather strangely perhaps) translates as "King of the Boii". Cato tells us that the Boii were subdivided into 112 seperate family clans and were a well known Celtic tribe.

Several possibilities raise themselves here;
- As in many ancient attempts at ethnography, we may be dealing with a title rather than a personal name.
- And is Beornric [or its ancestor or something similar] an impossible Germanic name?
- And since the Celts in present day Belgium and Baden-Wuerttemberg and Bavaria and Bohemia were the more 'civilised' neighbours of the Germans, why shouldn't the latter have adopted Celtic terminology wholesale from them?
- THe Latins were not yet familiar with the northern barbarians - who would they have used as interpreters and informants? Answer; Celts.

All circumstantial of course, but suggestive nonetheless.
That there were Celts in Denmark at some point in time is not unlikely, considering the existence of the Gundestrup cauldron.

And why should the Germanics of Yore have been any worse than their many-times-great-grandsons when it came to plunder?!
They might even have imported it legitimately!

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

THe dates for the creation of the British words are far too late to have any connection whatsoever with the migrating hordes of the last centuries B.C. Do your bestest to combat this ridiculously oldfashioned and simplistic idea whenever you come across it!

The Brythonic languages are a branch of the larger Celtic group of IE languages. Related Continental Celtic languages would certainly have been around in the last centuries BC. I still don't see a reason why the words Cymri and Cimbri can't be related.
We find the name Brigantes in various Celtic territories from Iberia, Gaul and Britain.

You;ll have to elaborate on that one. "The Cimbri were Celts because the Ambrones were. And the Ambrones were because ..." ?

Not definitive but specualtive like most things when dealing with history.
The Ambrones who fough the Romans at the battle of Aqua Sextae called out their tribal names in a peculiarly Celtic fashion before the battle. The Ligurians who were fighting as Roman auxillaries then followed suit. I believe it was Tacitus who recorded that the reason for this was because the Ligurians themselves were a branch of the Ambrones.

And what about the Teutones?

I haven't seen anything related to them specifically.

Several possibilities raise themselves here;
- As in many ancient attempts at ethnography, we may be dealing with a title rather than a personal name.

It could be King Boii but King of the Boii is more likely.
Was Vercingetorix a title then rather than an actual name? I'm quite earnest in this question. It is not intended to be rhetorical.

- And is Beornric [or its ancestor or something similar] an impossible Germanic name?

No. Why, who is Beornic?

- And since the Celts in present day Belgium and Baden-Wuerttemberg and Bavaria and Bohemia were the more 'civilised' neighbours of the Germans, why shouldn't the latter have adopted Celtic terminology wholesale from them?

No reason. But if they did they seem to have reverted back to Germanic terminology again at some point.

- THe Latins were not yet familiar with the northern barbarians - who would they have used as interpreters and informants? Answer; Celts.

So you suggest that the leader of the Cimbri wasn't Boiorix, but that was simply a term given to him by Celtic translators? Is there evidence of this or just speculation?

And why should the Germanics of Yore have been any worse than their many-times-great-grandsons when it came to plunder?!
They might even have imported it legitimately!

That's true. I suppose the bog mummies found in Denmark were not necessarily Celtic either if Germanics also adopted Celtic sacrificial rituals.

[Gil]

Llywarch: by trained you must mean you have a degree, right? I studied Archeology and History as my major at the Univ. and worked in three dig sites but I eventually quit, due to personal reasons.

You might be familiar with archeo-genetics and all that is inherent to it, and as such i'll skip to the point: germanic tribes and celtic tribes shared cultural and genetic affinities but were nonetheless different. That's a moot point and one that is fully factual.

On the subject of the germanic tribes of the Cimbri, the Ambrones and the Teutones i've posted in another thread but i'll repost here.

1st - The idea of "celt" was different in the Classic Age from nowadays. For example, Strabo called the Teutones Celts while Posidonius called them Germani. The idea was that the gauls did not differ greatly from the romans except a bit on height and hair colour while the germanic tribes were definitely different.

Strabo pointed out that the Teutones were celts, differing "only by being "wilder, taller, and have yellower hair." The Celts who lived in Gaul, he goes on to say, "called them 'Germani' because they wanted to indicate that they were the 'authentic,' the real Celts. (Germani meaning in the local latin-base dialect "authentic). So, one can see that for the common roman or the roman citizen living in a colony, the idea of Celt was of a man of great height, very depigmented and with fair hair. Upon seeing the germanic tribesmen, the romans called them Germani, for they considered them to be the "true" celts.

What this means is that the celts were, in some ways, similar to the germans, but the difference being enough to set them apart.
In the case of the Cimbri, they were probably a mixed culture, hence them being strikingly similar to Germanics in looks while having a celtic culture and social structure.

2nd - During the roman times, there were many tribes calling themselves Ambrones, as one can see in Sextus Pompeius Festus, De verborum significatu (Pauli Diaconi, epitoma), ed. of W.M. Lindsay, p. 15):

"Ambrones fuerunt gens quaedam Gallica, qui subita inundatione maris cum amisissent sedes suas, rapinis et praedationibus se suosque alere coeperunt".


According to Plutarch, some Ambrones joined the Cimbri in fighting the romans, and when they shouted their names the ligurian soldiers fighting for Rome recognized it and shouted the same name back.

Some historians explain that fact: the Ligurians were of celtic origin and their celtic name were Ambrones, more of a meaning-name that an ethnic name. Most historians believe (and so do I) that Ambrones comes from amb-er-on , meaning "people of the river", which was used by many celtic tribes both in Gaul and Spain.

On the "Spaniards that speak a Romance language" remark, well, it's a matter of defining what area are you talking about: we can talk about a "celtic morphology" or a "celtic culture" or a "celtic tongue" and in all these matters you can find traces, stronger or weaker depending on region, in the northwestern/central north region of the Iberian Peninsula.

[henerte]

Originally Posted by Perun

It's interesting that both Slavic and Celtic nations have the same patron saint of the Apostle Andrew...

From what I know, the patron saint of Poland, as well as Czechia and Hungary is Saint Wojciech (Saint Vojtech, Saint Bela or in latin, Saint Adalbertus). There is also Saint Stanislaus of Szczepanow who is also considered to be a patron saint of Poland (and Cracow). I have seen also Saint Jacek of Odrowaz (Saint Hiacynt) and Saint Florian (according to tradition burried in Cracow) listed as patron saints of Poland. Saint Jadwiga is considered to be the patron saint of all queens and united Europe. Mary is also traditionally thought to be the Queen of Poland and my impression is that usually most people associate her with patronage over Poland.

I never heard that there is a saint that has protection over all slavic countries.

....and both groups have a region of their own called Galicia(the Slavic Galicia is in Ukraine while the Celtic one is in Spain).

Galicia is an artificial term created by Austro-Hungary and derives its name from a town called Halich. The etymology of Halich is uncertain.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Perun

It's interesting that both Slavic and Celtic nations have the same patron saint of the Apostle Andrew...

I assume Perun meant that both a Slavic and a Celtic nation have him as their patron saint, not that all Slavic and Celtic lands do.

He is the patron saint of Scotland.
Russia too, unless I'm mistaken?

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Milesian

The Brythonic languages are a branch of the larger Celtic group of IE languages. Related Continental Celtic languages would certainly have been around in the last centuries BC. I still don't see a reason why the words Cymri and Cimbri can't be related.
We find the name Brigantes in various Celtic territories from Iberia, Gaul and Britain.

The point is a linguistic one. At the time when the Cimri had all their fun, the Brythonic form of the word 'Cymru' would have been *Combroges or summat like that. When the AngloSaxons got here they heard it as Cumbre- [hence Cumberland], and so it's only in the modern condition of Welsh that this ethnonym even vaguely approximates the name of these ancient migrants.

Not definitive but specualtive like most things when dealing with history.
The Ambrones who fough the Romans at the battle of Aqua Sextae called out their tribal names in a peculiarly Celtic fashion before the battle. The Ligurians who were fighting as Roman auxillaries then followed suit. I believe it was Tacitus who recorded that the reason for this was because the Ligurians themselves were a branch of the Ambrones.

Interesting. I need to read up on all this stuff again, it's years since I've bothered with it all. Where do you recommend I start?!!!

It could be King Boii but King of the Boii is more likely.
Was Vercingetorix a title then rather than an actual name? I'm quite earnest in this question. It is not intended to be rhetorical.

True answer; I dunno!
More considered and pretentious answer; It may well be!
I think it translates as High Over King or some such. I'd feel pretty hubristic calling my infant son by such a name!

No. Why, who is Beornic?

The northern SubKingdom of Northumbria was called Bernicia [Beornice] and some genealogies have created an ancestor with such a name to legitimise the later rule of its Kings. As for Beornric - there've been a fair few of them in Germanic history, it's a common enough compound of common naming elements.

No reason. But if they did they seem to have reverted back to Germanic terminology again at some point.

Quite understandable, as the memory of ancient Celtic hegemony faded into oblivion, and the Germanic tribes most influenced by Celtic culture found this influence [due to proximity] replaced by Roman forms. Some of the more vigorous Germanic groups of the Volkerwanderung were of the more remote northern and eastern regions of Germania - places less Celticised in the first place.

So you suggest that the leader of the Cimbri wasn't Boiorix, but that was simply a term given to him by Celtic translators? Is there evidence of this or just speculation?

Just speculation. Of a more reasonable variety than most. And he may have adopted the title himself, as most of his career so far had seen him tearing his way through Celtic territory. You see many examples of this in history - I thought of the English in India being encouraged to adopt local elite customs and forms of address [George V was 'Kaisar i Hind'], or Alexander and his successors in Egypt... Pharaon!

That's true. I suppose the bog mummies found in Denmark were not necessarily Celtic either if Germanics also adopted Celtic sacrificial rituals.

Why assume these rituals were Celtic in the first place? Water sacrifice is pretty much a phenomenon seen all over the world, and was certainly observed among the common ancestor of both Celts and Germans.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Manji

Strabo pointed out that the Teutones were celts, differing "only by being "wilder, taller, and have yellower hair."

Sounds quite like an attempt to describe Germans, while not being sure of the correct name to use.

The Celts who lived in Gaul, he goes on to say, "called them 'Germani' because they wanted to indicate that they were the 'authentic,' the real Celts. (Germani meaning in the local latin-base dialect "authentic).

Sounds suspiciously like a folk etymology built by partially Romanised peoples aware of the Latin word 'germane' to explain a previously existing ethnonym of doubtful meaning [to THESE people].
And this idea of 'authentic Celts' might have meant those who came only recently from over the Rhine [back in the original Celtic homelands], and who had thus not mixed in with the local [Aqitanian etc.] preCeltic inhabitants of the west. [I believe Caesar was talking about the Belgae, when he was discussing the term Germani].

2nd - During the roman times, there were many tribes calling themselves Ambrones, as one can see in Sextus Pompeius Festus, De verborum significatu (Pauli Diaconi, epitoma), ed. of W.M. Lindsay, p. 15):
"Ambrones fuerunt gens quaedam Gallica, qui subita inundatione maris cum amisissent sedes suas, rapinis et praedationibus se suosque alere coeperunt".

No comprende! What does it mean?
THere is a description of a Wessex man as an "Ambro" in Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People. THe English did come first from the Jutish Peninsula, after all... [Although it COULD be a scholarly use of a dead Latin term].

Some historians explain that fact: the Ligurians were of celtic origin and their celtic name were Ambrones, more of a meaning-name that an ethnic name. Most historians believe (and so do I) that Ambrones comes from amb-er-on , meaning "people of the river", which was used by many celtic tribes both in Gaul and Spain.

A very typical and natural tribal name, yes. But where is the River word here? Modern Irish has Abhain, Welsh has Arfon, I don't see a possible ancestor here. Is it another term?

[Wilkolak]

Back to the original topic:

Poles - My people, so I can't comment!

Slovakians - I love them! I have only had great experiences with Slovaks. I would probably call them Poland's brother nation!

Czechs - Crazy folk, but great drinkers and great for partying with! I get along great with them too! Poland's little cousin. Their language is so cute too, hahaha!

Ukrainians - I am very fond of Ukrainians, and feel we Poles did many terrible things to them in the past. Hence I understand many of the workings of the UPA and other such anti-Poles. At the end of the day, fuck historical/political motives, all Ukrainians I've met are great people, respectable, genuine, and I have some good Ukrainian friends.

Russians - Phew, what a question! I know, I know, there are a million and one historical and political reasons as to why I should hate Russians, but at the end of the day, I love them too. One of my best friends is Russian, they are a proud, spiritual folk, and a mighty nation, with good, honest people! SLAVA MATA ROSIYA!

Belarussians - Ehm, what is the point of Belarus? Shouldn't it be a part of Russia? Met one Belarussian and he was an asshole, but I am sure that on the whole, they are the same as Russians, so by default I should like them.

Slovenians - Never met one, hardly know anything about them, save for on a general knowledge level (historical, political etc.), so no comment.

Croats - I know a really nice Croat, but in general I tend to find they have a strong "superiority complex", or a lot of arrogance. Most I have met have been shoving their national pride down my throat, and it pisses me off. Generally, I can't say I am too fond of Croats (just from those I met, save for the one).

Serbs - Prefer them to the Croats, but they are also generally an overly proud nation, but I find them less arrogant than the Croats and they can get very hostile/aggressive, often right after being your best friend basically (mood swings like hell amongst most of them!). But overall, very intelligent people in general, and I have had many Serbian acquaintances over time, and I can say I like them.

Bosnians - I refer to the non-Croats and non-Serbs, just the Muslim Bosnians, and simply for the fact that they are Muslim, I hate them already.

Macedonians - Same as Slovenia.

Bulgarians - While racially not all that Slavic, I find them to be a warm and relaxed people, more humble than Croats, less aggressive than Serbs, I have to say I quite like Bulgarians, I know a few Bulgarians who are really nice folk. They can have somewhat unpleasant, firey tempers, but I guess they are more Mediterannean than Northern, so I guess it's no problem.

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With regards to Tiwaz's comment (and too Zyklop's little hidden insinuation), these kind of Germans are not common, from what I have seen. I have been to Germany many times, and can only say I have been treated very well by all Germans (even skinheads), and I consider Germany my friend. I hate it when people find historical/political/cultural reasons to hate a whole group of people (I know you will probably answer with my attitude to the Muslims [...] [Comment removed: Rule 6.]). The worst I have gotten from Germans is a few Polackenwitze, but most of them are quite funny, and they are meant in humour, so this I don't mind, but this blind hatred/contempt etc. is simply ridiculous, irrational and completely immature! Especially to Slavs in general, when we are all completely different! It just shows their [...] [Comment removed: Rule 4.] stupidity to say such things!

[Hrvoje]

Ukrainians, Slovaks , Czechs , Bulgarians, Macedonians, Montenegrins.

Poles, Serbs, Russians, Belarussians, Slovenians.

[Slavni]

I don't like neo-croats,ex Serbs.

[Hrvoje]

Originally Posted by Slavni

I don't like neo-croats,ex Serbs.

And I have nothing but respect for real Serbs, Slavic component,
but unfortunately 95% is Turkic, Armenoid ,Cigan, Levantine , Asian and Near Eastern,
mentally and racially ,completely foreign to Europe

Black dot on Slavic unity

[Slavni]

Originally Posted by Hrvoje

And I have nothing but respect for real Serbs, Slavic component,
but unfortunately 95% is Turkic, Armenoid ,Cigan, Levantine , Asian and Near Eastern,
mentally and racially ,completely foreign to Europe

Black dot on Slavic unity

almost 50 % of Croats are angry at you now.
Find nice pic for your new avatar Your favourite Football-teams? or you really like Fahrid Murray Abraham on your current avatar?

Heil to Slovenian brothers,there are just two problems between us.