Sexting

[Faran]

I'd like to point out a couple of things...

1) it's in Europe too, and increasingly important
2) receivers are not only other teens, but also grown-ups
3) if a girl starts sending around her naked pictures when she is 14, what kind of adult you think she will become?

"Sexting" Shockingly Common Among Teens



(CBS/ AP) While it may be shocking, the practice of "sexting" - sending nude pictures via text message - is not unusual, especially for high schoolers around the country.

This week, three teenage girls who allegedly sent nude or semi-nude cell phone pictures of themselves, and three male classmates in a western Pennsylvania high school who received them, are charged with child pornography.

In October a Texas eighth-grader spent the night in a juvenile detention center after his football coach found a nude picture on his cell phone that a fellow student sent him.

Roughly 20 percent of teens admit to participating in "sexting," according to a nationwide survey (pdf) by the National Campaign to Support Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy.

"This is a serious felony. They could be facing many years in prison," CBS News legal analyst Lisa Bloom said of the six teens in Pennsylvania.

But, Bloom added, "What are we going to do, lock up 20 percent of America's teens?"

Police in Greensburg, about 30 miles east of Pittsburgh, say the girls are 14 or 15 and the boys charged with receiving the photos are 16 or 17. None are being identified because most criminal cases in Pennsylvania juvenile courts are not public.

Police say they first learned about the pictures in October. They say a student had a phone turned on in class, a violation of school policy, which prompted an administrator to confiscate the phone and subsequently find the pictures, reports CBS station KDKA-TV.

"Sexting" Shockingly Common Among Teens - CBS News

[Dvx]

Originally Posted by Faran

I'd like to point out a couple of things...

1) it's in Europe too, and increasingly important
2) receivers are not only other teens, but also grown-ups
3) if a girl starts sending around her naked pictures when she is 14, what kind of adult you think she will become?
"Sexting" Shockingly Common Among Teens - CBS News

Indeed it's in Europe and increasing. The generation following mine is totally messed. It's quite MTV and MCM hip-hop culture. MTV has always been quite trashy, but 15 years ago it was not this complete absurd of inciting vulgarity.

[Lakedaemon]

I find it absurd however to be charged with child pornography. And what they would be charged with if they had sex, pedophilia?

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Lakedaemon

I find it absurd however to be charged with child pornography. And what they would be charged with if they did sex, pedophilia?

I'm sorry, how do you call a picture of a 13 years old girl? granny's photo?

[Lakedaemon]

Originally Posted by Faran

I'm sorry, how do you call a picture of a 13 years old girl? granny's photo?

Typically a thirteen year old girl is not a child but an adolescent. But apart from that the offender is the child itself so there are no incentives for sexual abusing.

[Lutiferre]

Funny with a society that isn't at all worried about and even encourages teenage promiscuity, but nude pictures of teenagers is suddenly something we have to be worried about. Both are evils, but it doesn't make much sense to condemn one without condemning the other.

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Lakedaemon

Typically a thirteen year old girl is not a child but an adolescent. But apart from that the offender is the child itself so there are no incentives for sexual abusing.

It is by sure a non mature human, both physically and mentally, and by law pedophilia is the crime committed by who takes advantage of that immaturity.

Now you can waste your time by criticizing the name because "technically" pedo- means only "child" (i'm not even sure about that), but it wouldn't change the coward exploitation of a young human.
------------
The offender produces material forbidden by law, so committing a crime; it has no relevance against whom the crime is committed because 1) a 13 years old has no power/right to take certain decisions because she/he is not ready 2) as I pointed out, it's not a mere self-portrait but a content sent to others, and in many cases it's not another teen but a grown up. at best, it's enticing another teen, which is a crime
------------

by the way, are you defending those practices? because at that point I don't know what you do on a nationalist, traditionalist forum: I don't think any nationalist/traditionalist would bolster this kind of things.

it is true that ancient Greece accepted pedophilia, but I was convinced times changed. am I in the wrong?

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Funny with a society that isn't at all worried about and even encourages teenage promiscuity, but nude pictures of teenagers is suddenly something we have to be worried about. Both are evils, but it doesn't make much sense to condemn one without condemning the other.

it is clearly some vestigial element of pre-modern memory. however you are right, both phenomena should be eradicated and I pray God to make me live enough to see that happening

[Lakedaemon]

Originally Posted by Faran

It is by sure a non mature human, both physically and mentally, and by law pedophilia is the crime committed by who takes advantage of that immaturity.

I think that I would agree with this although "taking advantage of that immaturity" might mean a lot of things.

Now you can waste your time by criticizing the name because "technically" pedo- means only "child", but it wouldn't change the coward exploitation of a young human.

No I won't, this wasn't my point. On the contrary it is exactly a point which I would dispute. How can we rely on technical concepts such as age when we want to solve problems broader in nature. And that is what you did by grouping together children and adolescents. With such a formulation an eighteen year old man would be a pedophile if he had sex with his one year younger girlfriend. I once heard that similar cases have happened in America.

(i'm not even sure about that)

Yes it means child.

------------
The offender produces material forbidden by law, so committing a crime; it has no relevance against whom the crime is committed because 1) a 13 years old has no power/right to take certain decisions because she/he is not ready

You do believe that she is not ready to take certain decisions, however she is ready to confront the justice and to be convicted for something that she did when she wasn't ready.

by the way, are you defending those practices? because at that point I don't know what you do on a nationalist, traditionalist forum: I don't think any nationalist/traditionalist would bolster this kind of things.

Not exactly, the fact that I would't agree with the charges (especially to the recipients) does not necessary mean that I feel a sympathy for such practices. With a paraphrase of those which Lutiferre said, I would say that in a fictitious society where sexual promiscuity is the norm, during the adolescence it would be also normal for a person to be developed with the same standards.

it is true that ancient Greece accepted pedophilia, but I was convinced times changed. am I in the wrong?

Pedophilia wasn't ever accepted. Pederasty yes, but it was far away from the modern definition. And yes, timed changed. If I was discourteous I could answer you the same way..

[Faran]

I'm very concerned about this topic because I think people should be educated when they are still young and malleable; once you deal with adults, you know recovery from a mistake (or simply learning basic behaviors) gets more and more difficult. Protecting and forming young humans should be a society's priority (partially they did it even in tribal times, with rites of passage and other obligations).
But anti-patriotic forces push the young towards corruption and addictions, with the obvious goal of forging weak, controllable, enslaved perverted adults.
If a 14 years old boy, let's say, gets accustomed to receive naked pictures of his 12/13 years old girlfriend on his mobile phone, what kind of sexual habits you think he will develop? How hedonistic you think he will get?
Sex obsession is just like food obsession, heroine obsession, alcohol obsession and so on: yeah, getting drunk is fun, but how many times a week can you do it without compromising your life? and how old should you do it to begin it?

However, I am not saying this to accuse you of something; rather, I apologize if, carried away by my concerns, I have gone too far with my previous posts - certainly I made a mistake about your attitude, I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by Lakedaemon

With such a formulation an eighteen year old man would be a pedophile if he had sex with his one year younger girlfriend. I once heard that similar cases have happened in America.

Probably a seventeen years old girl, on average, has already had sex with men 6 or even 7 years older than her...
However there should be reasonable boundaries - and there are some - established by law.
To get back to our case, the fact that the (first) receiver is only one year older than the 12 yo girl (and we know those pictures will be shared many times, end up on p2p services, leaked or whatever) doesn't cancel the act: if a 13 yo girl has sex - of any kind - with her 14 yo boyfriend, there is something wrong anyway.
In historical times, 13 yo were women and maybe pregnant; today, we can ask them to reach a certain degree of maturity (or age) to take that step.

You do believe that she is not ready to take certain decisions, however she is ready to confront the justice and to be convicted for something that she did when she wasn't ready.

of course she should get a proper treatment: not jail time, sure, but something anyway; same thing for the boy. consulting? social works? other measures?

Not exactly, the fact that I would't agree with the charges (especially to the recipients) does not necessary mean that I feel a sympathy for such practices. With a paraphrase of those which Lutiferre said, I would say that in a fictitious society where sexual promiscuity is the norm, during the adolescence it would be also normal for a person to be developed with the same standards.

i got your point with this.

Pedophilia wasn't ever accepted. Pederasty yes, but it was far away from the modern definition. And yes, timed changed. If I was discourteous I could answer you the same way..

Pederasty or Paederasty (pronounced [ˈpɛdəˌræsti] (American) or [ˈpiːdəˌræsti] (British), is an erotic relationship between an adolescent boy and an adult man outside his immediate family

I meant pederasty My mistake.

[Benen an ynys]

In historical times, 13 yo were women and maybe pregnant; today, we can ask them to reach a certain degree of maturity (or age) to take that step.

Wrong. Early onset of menstruation is a modern phenomenon (it is thought to be a result of increasing body weights of physically immature people these days) and most often girls do not begin ovulating for several years after menarche... or if they do ovulate it is sporadic and unpredictable. On top of this, for those who do manage to go against the odds and fall pregnant in their early to mid teens these days, the risk of miscarriage, still birth, foetal abnormality and the risks to the mother's health are increased exponentially.

Although average age of menarche is ever-decreasing (as people get taller earlier and the obesity epidemic continues), females in the developed "West" up until the 1980's had an average age of 15 years for the onset of menstruation.

In the times that you speak of, it was common for females to marry at 17 - 19 years, and for males to marry at ages maybe 1 or 2 years older, but never in the history of Europe has it been common for a female to be married and pregnant (!!) at the age of 13!

[Ximenes]

Originally Posted by Benen an ynys

In the times that you speak of, it was common for females to marry at 17 - 19 years, and for males to marry at ages maybe 1 or 2 years older, but never in the history of Europe has it been common for a female to be married and pregnant (!!) at the age of 13!

You have to account then for the Common Law ages of consent, and the recorded ages of many marriages during those times.

It was not common, but it was done, and it was not considered a grave perversion.

There seem to be many causes for earlier maturation. It would be helpful I think, to keep hormone-like substances out of drinking water, to keep the sexes separated in school, to keep children away from tv, to keep the temperature cooler, to generally improve the diet while decreasing the amount of calories consumed. There are many possible factors.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Faran

Probably a seventeen years old girl, on average, has already had sex with men 6 or even 7 years older than her...

I find this hard to believe. Faran, do you think that's the case with Italian girls?

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Benen an ynys

Wrong. Early onset of menstruation is a modern phenomenon (it is thought to be a result of increasing body weights of physically immature people these days) and most often girls do not begin ovulating for several years after menarche... or if they do ovulate it is sporadic and unpredictable. On top of this, for those who do manage to go against the odds and fall pregnant in their early to mid teens these days, the risk of miscarriage, still birth, foetal abnormality and the risks to the mother's health are increased exponentially.

Although average age of menarche is ever-decreasing (as people get taller earlier and the obesity epidemic continues), females in the developed "West" up until the 1980's had an average age of 15 years for the onset of menstruation.

In the times that you speak of, it was common for females to marry at 17 - 19 years, and for males to marry at ages maybe 1 or 2 years older, but never in the history of Europe has it been common for a female to be married and pregnant (!!) at the age of 13!

even better then, that story has always been disturbing for me.
but I vaguely recall cases of girls married (not pregnant) earlier than 17...
however, your competence is always surprising

Originally Posted by Monolith

I find this hard to believe. Faran, do you think that's the case with Italian girls?

I have witnessed cases in at least 4 European nations
and many of them. but in general 17 yo with a boyfriend that is 23/24 isn't that uncommon...
then, of course, there are the super-evolved girls who carry on a relationship with a 31 yo and a 17 yo at the same time (they don't know of each other).
in many cases i've heard the reason for a 17 yo to get with a 22/23/24/24+ is "he has a car"

however, i must say, in metropolitan areas it's much different, in smaller towns this kind of things is a little more frowned upon and anyway it's a source of gossip.
we live in a terrible world

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Faran

and many of them. but in general 17 yo with a boyfriend that is 23/24 isn't that uncommon...

Yes, it's not too uncommon here either, but it's far form being average. Ironically, a girl who fits that description is my first neighbor and she's pregnant.

in many cases i've heard the reason for a 17 yo to get with a 22/23/24/24+ is "he has a car"

Sounds familiar. Such girls are a bit more demanding here in my city, where not just any car will do the trick. What they're after are BMWs and similar cars.

[Benen an ynys]

Originally Posted by Ximenes

You have to account then for the Common Law ages of consent, and the recorded ages of many marriages during those times.

It was not common, but it was done, and it was not considered a grave perversion.

Even in modern times there are a very small minority of females who marry as young as 16 in developed countries. But 13? I don't think so matey!

In cultures where young girls are married off (often to old men), sometimes as young as 5 or 6 years of age etc, it is common practice that the "wife" doesn't go to live with her husband until she at least reaches menarche. Still a perverted practice if you ask me, in the sense that it exploits, disempowers and basically takes away any personal freedoms or true respect of the vulnerable, but just goes to show that even in the most foreign of cultures sexual maturity is considered to be a significant factor.

Originally Posted by X

There seem to be many causes for earlier maturation. It would be helpful I think, to keep hormone-like substances out of drinking water, to keep the sexes separated in school, to keep children away from tv, to keep the temperature cooler, to generally improve the diet while decreasing the amount of calories consumed. There are many possible factors.

The latest research suggests that onset of puberty in females at least, is largely determined by body weight. It has always been the case that overweight or very tall girls tend to reach puberty at earlier ages than smaller, lighter girls. (Mind you, this is within the European spectrum... I think that some other races (like Australian aborigines) do on average mature sexually earlier than Europeans, regardless of weight.)

I've never read any conclusive evidence that increased oestrogen (or oestrogen mimicking chemical) levels in the environment leads to ealier onset of puberty or menstruation in females. It seems to me to be one of the hippy-trippy type theories. As for keeping the sexes separated in school and air temperatures etc... I have no idea what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Faran

in many cases i've heard the reason for a 17 yo to get with a 22/23/24/24+ is "he has a car"

Funny... when I was 17 I remember thinking that guys in their 20's were old men. LOL! (Seems ridiculous to me now.) I also remember when a guy who was 25 asked me out when I was 18 and all my friends laughed and said that he was waaaaaay too old.

And I know it wasn't just me...

Last year I was doing a language course and we had to do an exercise where we had to match a quotation to a "person" on whom we were given some basic info like occupation etc. The youngest person in the class was a girl who must have been about 19 or 20... we all laughed when she matched the quote from a 26 year old man to a particluar picture because he looked "like, really old", according to her. The other 2 "people" we had to match were guys of 21 and 22.

Maybe it's just Australia though?

[Ximenes]

Originally Posted by Benen an ynys

Even in modern times there are a very small minority of females who marry as young as 16 in developed countries. But 13? I don't think so matey!

Well, you are mistaken. And I think it's safe to say, that people who watch Romeo and Juliet generally do not see the plot as being some gross perversion.

In cultures where young girls are married off (often to old men), sometimes as young as 5 or 6 years of age etc, it is common practice that the "wife" doesn't go to live with her husband until she at least reaches menarche.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Don't change the subject.

Still a perverted practice if you ask me, in the sense that it exploits, disempowers and basically takes away any personal freedoms or true respect of the vulnerable, but just goes to show that even in the most foreign of cultures sexual maturity is considered to be a significant factor.

You don't like arranged marriages. Okay. That has 0 to do with this discussion.

The latest research suggests that onset of puberty in females at least, is largely determined by body weight. It has always been the case that overweight or very tall girls tend to reach puberty at earlier ages than smaller, lighter girls. (Mind you, this is within the European spectrum... I think that some other races (like Australian aborigines) do on average mature sexually earlier than Europeans, regardless of weight.)

That's why I mentioned caloric intake.

I've never read any conclusive evidence that increased oestrogen (or oestrogen mimicking chemical) levels in the environment leads to ealier onset of puberty or menstruation in females.

Contamination of the water supply with female hormones should be prevented. I suggested it might have an effect.

It seems to me to be one of the hippy-trippy type theories.

"Hippy Trippy" or not endocrinologists consider it.

Report Of Earlier, Longer Puberty In Girls / Science News

As for keeping the sexes separated in school and air temperatures etc... I have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, I believe coeducation and the media cause a premature interest in sex among children. Whether that influences them physically or not, I don't know. But it's related to the problem of premature development. Here's a link about temperature.

SpringerLink - Journal Article

Gibbon, in discussing the case of Aisha, mentions the climate as a factor in early maturity.

Here's a link about the correlation of early menarche with the absence of a father (or presence of a "step-father")

SpringerLink - Journal Article

Funny... when I was 17 I remember thinking that guys in their 20's were old men. LOL! (Seems ridiculous to me now.) I also remember when a guy who was 25 asked me out when I was 18 and all my friends laughed and said that he was waaaaaay too old.

Yes, well, you are conditioned to think that way. Needless to say many women are not conditioned to think that way. The idea that teenage girls who are 18 think it is "bizarre" that they are interested in "older men" is just an anecdotal experience, and has little to do with the real world.

And I know it wasn't just me...

Last year I was doing a language course and we had to do an exercise where we had to match a quotation to a "person" on whom we were given some basic info like occupation etc. The youngest person in the class was a girl who must have been about 19 or 20... we all laughed when she matched the quote from a 26 year old man to a particluar picture because he looked "like, really old", according to her. The other 2 "people" we had to match were guys of 21 and 22.

Maybe it's just Australia though?

Yes, I think the stereotypical ideas about what is "normal" for women are highly entrenched in the anglosphere, as is feminism.

I wonder how so many women reconcile these ideas if they are fans of say Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre.

[Der]

Originally Posted by Monolith

I find this hard to believe. Faran, do you think that's the case with Italian girls?

I don't know why it would be so surprising, maybe it's not the case where you live.

Originally Posted by Faran

I have witnessed cases in at least 4 European nations
and many of them. but in general 17 yo with a boyfriend that is 23/24 isn't that uncommon...

No it isn't, but the question is: do you agree that this should be like way?

Personally I don’t have a problem with it, I find it quite normal, when you get to a certain age it starts to become harder to tell who's 20 from who’s 21, 22, 23, it's normal that 18 year old girls should be going out with men who are a few years older than them.

When people leave high school and integrate in the real world; working and dealing with people of all ages, what becomes harder to see are couples who are of the same age or who are within the margin of a 1 or 2 year gap difference, the difference of years is usually higher, 4 to 5 years gap difference.

Originally Posted by Benen an ynys

Funny... when I was 17 I remember thinking that guys in their 20's were old men. LOL! (Seems ridiculous to me now.) I also remember when a guy who was 25 asked me out when I was 18 and all my friends laughed and said that he was waaaaaay too old.

And I know it wasn't just me...

Last year I was doing a language course and we had to do an exercise where we had to match a quotation to a "person" on whom we were given some basic info like occupation etc. The youngest person in the class was a girl who must have been about 19 or 20... we all laughed when she matched the quote from a 26 year old man to a particluar picture because he looked "like, really old", according to her. The other 2 "people" we had to match were guys of 21 and 22.

Maybe it's just Australia though?

Australians are certainly strange folks.

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Der

No it isn't, but the question is: do you agree that this should be like way?

should? no. could? if it works for them...

[Phlegethon]

Originally Posted by Benen an ynys

Even in modern times there are a very small minority of females who marry as young as 16 in developed countries. But 13? I don't think so matey!

Not just thirteen, but also first cousins.

[Jerry Lee] Lewis' turbulent personal life was hidden from the public until a May 1958 British tour where Ray Berry, a news agency reporter at London Airport (the only journalist present), learned about Lewis' third wife, Myra Gale Brown. She was Lewis' first cousin once removed and only 13 years old. (Brown, Lewis, and his management all insisted she was 15.) Lewis was nearly 23 years old.

Returning to Baltimore, [Edgar Allan] Poe secretly married Virginia, his cousin, on September 22, 1835. She was 13 at the time, though she is listed on the marriage certificate as being 21. Reinstated by White after promising good behavior, Poe went back to Richmond with Virginia and her mother. He remained at the Messenger until January 1837. During this period, Poe claimed that its circulation increased from 700 to 3,500. He published several poems, book reviews, critiques, and stories in the paper. On May 16, 1836, he had a second wedding ceremony in Richmond with Virginia Clemm, this time in public.

Or, if they are not first cousins and you cannot marry them legally, at least start dating them at 13:

In 1989 [Bill] Wyman married the eighteen-year-old Mandy Smith, whom he had been dating since she was thirteen; their relationship was the subject of considerable media attention.

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Phlegethon

Not just thirteen, but also first cousins.

[Jerry Lee] Lewis' turbulent personal life was hidden from the public until a May 1958 British tour where Ray Berry, a news agency reporter at London Airport (the only journalist present), learned about Lewis' third wife, Myra Gale Brown. She was Lewis' first cousin once removed and only 13 years old. (Brown, Lewis, and his management all insisted she was 15.) Lewis was nearly 23 years old.

Returning to Baltimore, [Edgar Allan] Poe secretly married Virginia, his cousin, on September 22, 1835. She was 13 at the time, though she is listed on the marriage certificate as being 21. Reinstated by White after promising good behavior, Poe went back to Richmond with Virginia and her mother. He remained at the Messenger until January 1837. During this period, Poe claimed that its circulation increased from 700 to 3,500. He published several poems, book reviews, critiques, and stories in the paper. On May 16, 1836, he had a second wedding ceremony in Richmond with Virginia Clemm, this time in public.

Or, if they are not first cousins and you cannot marry them legally, at least start dating them at 13:

In 1989 [Bill] Wyman married the eighteen-year-old Mandy Smith, whom he had been dating since she was thirteen; their relationship was the subject of considerable media attention.

freaks...