Discrimination Against Men in All Areas of Life

[Tryggr]

Originally Posted by Delbáeth

I think both men and women get fucked over by modern society.

So true.

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

No it does not, in fact, no sort of pursuing intentions are mentioned at all. It rather says there is a double standard putting men a year behind women in their lives/careers by default.

And a woman is put behind in her "life/career" for years by being impregnated. I don't regard pregnancy as a burden, nor should men regard compulsary service as one.

I´m not sure what your definition of harass is, but sexual harassment is punished by law. A second class citizen is a citizen to whom the law grants less priviledges in my book.

You're living in books, that's your problem I think. Think realistically. Somehow I'm above them in the law yet they still treat me like an object, like something to seduce, have sex with, and then throw away for the next woman to come along? I know this isn't all men.

Typical feminist argument of women making less money because of "sexism". Here is something to consider: "women makng less money is rather related to earning less and not some male conspiracy that sort of auto-proves itself by mentioning women win less".

Ummmm... so earning less for doing the exact same bloody job is okay? Seriously? What planet do you live on?!

So more men prefer Medicine than women. In College I expect Algebra and Calculus teachers to be female for example, design careers have also a clear female majority. This doesnt prove discrimination, just a preference for certain areas.

No! You didn't get the point! ,-, A Doctor does not have to be a MEDICAL doctor, they can also have a doctorate in another subject. A PhD is not in medicine, that's an MD. And on the medical question... I work in the medical department of a bookshop and I'd say the mix of the sexes is rather even with more men in emergency medicine, (plastic) surgery, and perhaps more "extreme disciplines", whereas women are often in pediatrics, family medicine, and maybe more "mild" disciplines. Also, Nursing is evenly divided amongst the sexes. This is in terms of the book-buying students and public.

Most math professors are male. In fact, most of my professors were male. Out of around 14 professors, 4 were female. 10 were male. ^^ TAs? One female, the rest male.

I can't say much on design because I don't go to an arts college like OCAD.

Women tend to be more in languages or humanities, though the sciences have a relatively even mixture with more women in life sciences (and others that lead into medicine) than in computer sciences, for example.

An unfair assesment of my previous posts, which in my opinion were fair and raised valid points.

By saying women are always above men bla bla bla, to me, it's not really valid, and to me, you just seem to hate women. But maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

I dont know what "objectification" is supposed to be, but if treating women as desirable is considered objectification, it doesnt imply discrimination of any sort. And again this is all about laws and not percieved societal phenomena.

Objectification is treating a woman or a man like a sexual object, basically, and ignoring their humanity. It isn't treating women (or men) as desirable in a positive manner. It implies discrimination.

Laws and real life ("Perceived" (as in OBSERVED) societal phenomena) are two sides of the coin. Laws don't really apply in real life and often events occur that go against what you perceive to be the norm. Maybe you should go outside and watch people in a city, especially on the metro.

So there is a single adverisiment with a possible rape suggestion, what does this have to do with the everyday man who may not even be interested in the product advertised?

They were examples. Do you want me to scan in a bunch of advertisments of such nature? In every advertisment I see in a magazine directed towards both genders, for example, men are usually in a dominative position. I can scan them once I unpack my computer.

I dont see any "submision" there.

Look at her face. She's clearly submitting. The man is between her legs, for chrissakes.

No, the point of the advertisement seems to be: men like women more than cars, but this car is so good the man prefers looking at it rather than the woman.

Different interpretations, but why wouldn't it be a woman who likes men more than cars, but thinks that this car is so good that the women prefers looking at it rather than the man? Honestly, it's so ludicrous-- the whole concept is that the woman is unimportant when compared to an inanimate lump of steel and plastic.

There is a quota for males? In which country?

Well if there's a quota for women, logically the rest of the group will be made of males (i.e. a quota of males)

Just a few examples of practical anti male discrimination

Cause it all is regarded as negative...? Women weren't even allowed to attend school or uni up until relatively recent times. Sure, not all deserve to go, but many drop out anyways.

No, the whole elite moves in the same direction. If students were told in campuses that feminism was nonsense there would not be an approval or toleration of it, it is important that there is an agreement in the establishment institutions.

Which elite? The university professors? Hardly elites, elites utilise social engineering to go to the top, maybe sometimes a professor but not usually.

Students aren't sheep, they won't always listen to what is said to them by the professor except to write it down to write on the exam because what you write on an exam (the professor's opinion) isn't necessarily your own.

So your "point" is that women can be victims of unjustice. Anyone can be, only men are treated unjustly against by default.

Men are not treated unjustly against by default. I don't see how quotas cause this whole movement for men to be treated like dirt when they clearly have a socially dominative position.

Go outside and meet people, observe socially, and then come back and talk about this.

[Amorsite]

Well if there's a quota for women, logically the rest of the group will be made of males (i.e. a quota of males)

wow I wonder with what sort of logic this conclusion is even possible. I don't have time to comment about the rest right now.

[Susi]

You didn't finish commenting ^^

The logic is that if you have a group of 10 and you are to have 3 females (a quota) then obviously the rest will be made of males (7 males, technically a sort of quota in itself).

[Amorsite]

And a woman is put behind in her "life/career" for years by being impregnated. I don't regard pregnancy as a burden, nor should men regard compulsary service as one.

Not a valid analogy, pregnancy is natural and a personal choice (in fact shamefully most European countries dont even meet the basic fertility rates for replacement).

Military service is an artificial demand by the state to men, it is not natural nor a matter of choice. This is what I am arguing againt.

You're living in books, that's your problem I think. Think realistically. Somehow I'm above them in the law yet they still treat me like an object, like something to seduce, have sex with, and then throw away for the next woman to come along? I know this isn't all men.

You keep mixing irrelevant appreciations of men into this issue. Men are discriminated by law. That is a fact. If they are so bad then you are free to avoid them. They are your problems and not of the entire male gender.

Ummmm... so earning less for doing the exact same bloody job is okay? Seriously? What planet do you live on?!

Yes it is ok. You dont even have a single proof that they earn less because of discrimination.

No! You didn't get the point! ,-, A Doctor does not have to be a MEDICAL doctor, they can also have a doctorate in another subject. A PhD is not in medicine, that's an MD. And on the medical question... I work in the medical department of a bookshop and I'd say the mix of the sexes is rather even with more men in emergency medicine, (plastic) surgery, and perhaps more "extreme disciplines", whereas women are often in pediatrics, family medicine, and maybe more "mild" disciplines. Also, Nursing is evenly divided amongst the sexes. This is in terms of the book-buying students and public.

So women dont educate themselves as much as men and opt for milder professions. You still dont have a point.

Most math professors are male. In fact, most of my professors were male. Out of around 14 professors, 4 were female. 10 were male. ^^ TAs? One female, the rest male.

Odd, I recall having only one male math teacher, and following the kind of career I do, I probably have more maths than you do.

By saying women are always above men bla bla bla, to me, it's not really valid, and to me, you just seem to hate women. But maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

Im not just saying things, I am backing them up with facts. This is something you cannot do, since you are trying to defend the undefendable.

Throwing some random advertisements and commenting with your feminist paranoia doesnt count as facts either.

Cause it all is regarded as negative...? Women weren't even allowed to attend school or uni up until relatively recent times. Sure, not all deserve to go, but many drop out anyways.

Ah great, Im totally relieved now. Im packing up and quitting...

Which elite? The university professors? Hardly elites, elites utilise social engineering to go to the top, maybe sometimes a professor but not usually.

Zeitgeist impregnating the era on all areas.

Students aren't sheep, they won't always listen to what is said to them by the professor except to write it down to write on the exam because what you write on an exam (the professor's opinion) isn't necessarily your own.

People are sheep, students are people. It doesnt matter what conclusions you take if all you have been fed with is leftist nonsense pointing in the same direction. The game is rigged.

Men are not treated unjustly against by default

Yeah, ok.

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Susi

You didn't finish commenting ^^

The logic is that if you have a group of 10 and you are to have 3 females (a quota) then obviously the rest will be made of males (7 males, technically a sort of quota in itself).

Why will the rest obviously be males? Hasnt it ocurred to you that having a quota for females plays only against a male and not a female majority?

BTW look at the lunatic law I just found on the European Parliament site

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT FACT SHEETS - 4.8.7. Equality for men and women

f. Modification of the ‘burden of proof' in cases of sex-discrimination
The Council adopted a directive on this subject on 15 December 1997. Under the directive it is up to defendants taken to court for direct or indirect discrimination to prove that they have not infringed the principle of equal treatment. Until that date, a woman invoking a breach of the principle of equality in cases of discrimination of this kind usually had to assume the burden of proof on her own, even if some of the facts would have been easier for the defendant to establish.

"you are a white man, you are suspect. It is not enough that you are discriminated against and slowly disappearing from the planet, we will screw you while you live too".

The left, liberalism and their likes need to be destroyed to never rise again. If the 20th century teaches us all a lesson, then that is it. Never again, never again let these crooks ruin our lives and our countries.

[Weltschmerz]

I think it's true that men are being discriminated against, and it is easy, as demonstrated, to round up the examples.

Furthermore, in a system that is supposedly guided by equality, and where the means to achieve the so called equality is to discriminate against men, all arguments referring to a failure of this antipatriotic agenda, to the benefit of more discrimination against men, are designed on the premises that discrimination based on gender is a legitimate means to an end, and as such they are invalid when they are used in any attempt to prove that discrimination did not occur.

Put more simply: Men do sometimes outperform women even when they are discriminated against. If you say that it calls for even more discrimination - well, whatever you are saying, you are not saying that discrimination against men did not occur.

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

Not a valid analogy, pregnancy is natural and a personal choice (in fact shamefully most European countries dont even meet the basic fertility rates for replacement).

A personal choice like abortion? Or do you mean the choice of a man and a woman. You can't have it without both. So don't blame my gender.

Military service is an artificial demand by the state to men, it is not natural nor a matter of choice. This is what I am arguing againt.

Should a man not be able to defend his country when he is called?

You keep mixing irrelevant appreciations of men into this issue. Men are discriminated by law. That is a fact. If they are so bad then you are free to avoid them. They are your problems and not of the entire male gender.

They are also the problems of many of my friends and associates.

Yes it is ok. You dont even have a single proof that they earn less because of discrimination.

You didn't ask.

US: Congress studies why women earn less

Women's income is lower on average than that of men in part because they generally work less, leave the labor force for longer periods and tend to hold jobs that pay less, a congressional study found.


But even after adjustments are made for those factors, women still earned an average of 20.3 per cent less than men in 2000, investigators said Thursday.

USATODAY.com - Census: College-educated white women earning less

Black and Asian women with bachelor's degrees earn slightly more than similarly educated white women, and white men with four-year degrees make more than anyone else.
A white woman with a bachelor's degree typically earned nearly $37,800 in 2003, compared with nearly $43,700 for a college-educated Asian woman and $41,100 for a college-educated black woman, according to data being released Monday by the Census Bureau. Hispanic women took home slightly less at $37,600 a year.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-table18-2005.pdf
If you look at this tables, nearly in every occupation men make more money.

National Statistics Online

In 2007, median weekly earnings of full-time employees for women of £394 were 21 per cent less than those for men (£498), unchanged from 2006.

SCWIST | Women still earn less than men for same work, Canadian census says

In 2005, women earned 85 cents for every dollar paid to men in a comparison of full-time, full-year workers aged 25 to 29 where there’s little difference between the sexes in labour market experience and tenure.

Happy?

So women dont educate themselves as much as men and opt for milder professions. You still dont have a point.

My point is that many students drop out anyways, even if they weren't deserving (both genders, but also women). Milder professions... riiiiight.

Odd, I recall having only one male math teacher, and following the kind of career I do, I probably have more maths than you do.

What, are you calling me maths-stupid now? ,-, That's not very nice. In highschool only one out of five of my math teachers were female, and in university, talking to those that do math as a major or math as a part of their studies, most professors are male.

Im not just saying things, I am backing them up with facts. This is something you cannot do, since you are trying to defend the undefendable.

I gave you some statistics now stop calling me stupid.

I'm sorry but I'm trying to defend my gender here.

Throwing some random advertisements and commenting with your feminist paranoia doesnt count as facts either.

I gave you facts, like I said, and the advertisements are clearly male-dominated.

People are sheep, students are people. It doesnt matter what conclusions you take if all you have been fed with is leftist nonsense pointing in the same direction. The game is rigged.

Are all people sheep? Really? Don't some people purge themselves of their poisoned food?

[Amorsite]

A personal choice like abortion?

No. Abortion is not a personal choice since the baby has a different DNA to his or her mothers and is thus a different person. Abortion is murder, and should be met with the same.

Or do you mean the choice of a man and a woman. You can't have it without both. So don't blame my gender.

Blaming? Who is blaming? You are the one who introduced the pregnancy issue.

Should a man not be able to defend his country when he is called?

Were all men who ever fought wars in military services?

They are also the problems of many of my friends and associates.

Like I said, if you think men are so bad you can avoid them. This thread is about discrimination written in the laws to people by the mere fact they were born of a certain gender.

You didn't ask.

US: Congress studies why women earn less


USATODAY.com - Census: College-educated white women earning less


http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-table18-2005.pdf
If you look at this tables, nearly in every occupation men make more money.

National Statistics Online



SCWIST | Women still earn less than men for same work, Canadian census says


Happy?

I already told you that men making more money than women is not proof that they are discriminated. You should rather show how the only explanation to this is discrimination, which you cannot because it isnt.

My point is that many students drop out anyways, even if they weren't deserving (both genders, but also women). Milder professions... riiiiight.

It doesnt matter if they drop out or not, men deserve the same chances

What, are you calling me maths-stupid now? ,-, That's not very nice. In highschool only one out of five of my math teachers were female, and in university, talking to those that do math as a major or math as a part of their studies, most professors are male.



I gave you some statistics now stop calling me stupid.

I never called you such thing. Maths is not about logic, it is about exercising mostly. I am anti-math, but that is other story.

I'm sorry but I'm trying to defend my gender here.

Yes I can see right where you are coming from, but the problem is that you cannot "defend" them firstly because there was not an attack against women as such, and secondly because I am merely stating facts about men being discriminated. You are just trying to get around the facts with irrelevant attacks on a perceived male supremacy which is both off-topic and fruitless.

Are all people sheep? Really? Don't some people purge themselves of their poisoned food?

None that I know of. Though the internet has provided alternative viewpoints a chance in the minds of many.