Christianism and Paganism. Yet Another Discussion

[Pagandawn]

Originally Posted by Franjo Malgaj

I'm Slovenian nationalist, all my Slovenian ancestors were Christian as far as I know my family history. For more than 1000 years Slovenians believed in "dead kike" and fought for Christianity as part of European Christendom. It's below my dignity to insult religion of my ancestors.



Islam is infact a little more than just 'minor problem'. Anti-Christian pagans are a 'minor problem', but not Islam.

As for the Jews, there are about 200 Jews in my country and yet we still have problems with Muslims. We had problems with Muslims centuries ago when there were almoust no Jews here. And we probably would have problems with Muslims even if we remove every single Jew from Europe.



No one forced Europeans to Christianity, the fact is that the majority of Europeans converted to Christianity willingly, had they not, there would be no one to Christianize other Europeans.

You don't need to be a historian to know that all Christians who fought against pagans were Europeans.

--

Anyway, I'm not anti-pagan or something, in fact I have to agree with Dante here and put pagans into 1st cicle of hell. I have quite a lot respect for pre-Christian Slovenians and I was always interested in Roman and Greek paganism.

Don't you know that your ancestors like mine had a religion before xtianism? Paganism was there original religion. Not this desert religion from the middle-east. To worship a dead kike on a stick, or if you wish a dead Jew on a stick is exactly what xtians do. You don't dipute this? Well, I don't blame you, it is a fact.


So you are from the old yugoslavia? Yep. I know that Muslims have been a special problem for you through history. Do you know why?
Because as your ancesters betrayed your forfathers and became xtians. The same did the Bosnians and became Muslims, they wanted to obey bigbrother the Turks.

So the lesson is don't betray the religion of your forfathers, and especially don't choose a religion from the middle-east. Both Islam and xtianism are non European. So what did your forfathers do? They betrayed their forfathers and their EUROPEAN religion.

[Pagandawn]

Originally Posted by svin

I don't see any sense in discussing religion (precisely, bashing Christianity). It's too personal.

Interesting comment.

So bashing Christianity is too personal? I'll bet that you don't think it is too personal to bash Paganism or Islam?

[Pagandawn]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

@ Susi: thank you, I was watching the speech of the President of the Government of Spain after the bomb today by ETA. There was much expectation for what he would say, even if everyone knew that he would say nothing because he has nothing to say.. unless he told the truth, which would be unthinkable.

This is, unfortunately for all, more serious a matter than just a show debate.

Unfortunately for you, I am not what you understand by a Christian. In fact, you are surely missing the fact that I am an Agnostic yet a Christian. So your anti-Christianism does not hit on me as you might suppose.

I still have to see in which terms you define Europe, to be sure that we are both the same there.

You are right, I don't do that. What makes you think that I do?

I should remind you that Christianism developed not as a Jewish religion but as one opposed to Judaism. This is particularly true in the Western Catholic Church and in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Whatever the Reform did is of no concern to me as I have no such heritage. And, what they called reformation was a reconstruction of Christianism through the Old Testament or, in other words, bringing it in communion with Judaism and start the destruction of what was good of Christianism.

So, if you want to refer to Christianism as a "joo" religion, you should at least put the adjective of Protestant to it. At this point I would suggest that you have a read of Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.

Western Catholicism, however, has been following a path of degradation since Vatican II and so did Eastern Orthodoxy under Communism. I am personally ashamed that one key figure in degrading Western Catholicism has a Spanish origin, namely the Opus Dei which, among other things, introduced a Protestant-like ethic of work and a masonic style.

But this is no time to revolve to the old wars of religion. What happened was, in my opinion, a grave mistake. Not that Rome was not committing mistakes then.. Still, what was to reform was not the spirituality but the institution, which was done right with the Counter-reformation.

"Pagans!" That was a common accusation launched by the Reformers against Catholics. And right, like Carnyx says, you are likely to find much Pagan traditions in Catholicism. definitely more and more real than in neo-Paganism.

Want to see Pagan traditions and spirituality? I mean, for real. No hippy stuff? Then come around here and dig into the origins of the traditions of saints, sacred dates and ceremonies that people celebrate as part of their Catholic beliefs and traditions.

Sadly, there are two trends nowadays. One is nationalists who see Islam as an ally in the fight against Israel. The other is nationalists who see Israel as an ally in the fight against Islam.

I don't see what I have in common with Israel and Judaism, nor with Islam. Both are foreign to me and both represent a threat in different forms. So I must set my priorities right, which does not mean that in order to give an immediate priority to one problem I must neglect the other problem.

Which criteria? Read through above and tell me where it is a Jewish religion.

Tell me how a religion which officially states that "Since it is absurd and utterly inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery…", is a Jewish religion.

You mean that the Quram rejects the old scriptures? Since when? The New Testament does, as it officially denies the Jews their self-appointed status of God's people and further it condemns them to damnation.

Those may be prophetic words. Be careful with what you wish.

Agnostic? Well, that is what we atheists call a coward.

Yes. I'm first of all an atheist. Meaning I don't believe in any hokus-pokus. And I also call myself a pagan. But, I don't take our pagan stories for real as the xtians do. Our pagan stories are mythical, they are the stories of our European forfathers, I refuse to betray them.

It seems to me that you are not a christian in a religious way. But it is your cultural identity? Why not choose a European identity?


Xtianism developed in a middle-east or Jewish/Semistic geographic/cultural area. Therefor it is not a European religion. So xtianism developed against Judaism? That might be true. That only emphesis my point. If it had developed against the European religions, it would have been partly European. It did not, so it is pure Joo shit.

Pagan trad. in catholisism? That is probably true. But this means that it is stolen paganism. To convert European peoples to an alien Semitic religion meant that you had to incorporate internal European traditions.


Pagan religion, no hippie stuff? I've to admit that you are right. Not much to find. But, I truly believe that it will grow and that it is the ONLY way for European nationalists to go forward. I mean if we want to get the Joos out of our hair that is.

You as a historically conscious Spaniard should now the power of the Jews within a christian environment? The inquisition and Ferdinand/isabelle?

Dammit I think I will create a sepatate thread on this subject.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

Don't you know that your ancestors like mine had a religion before xtianism? Paganism was there original religion.

Indeed, I never said paganism wasn't religion of my ancestors, but they converted to Christianity and for more than 1000 years Slovenians believed and fought for Christianity. Christianity plays more important part in our indentity than paganism and we acomplished much more under Christianity than under paganism.

Not this desert religion from the middle-east. To worship a dead kike on a stick, or if you wish a dead Jew on a stick is exactly what xtians do. You don't dipute this? Well, I don't blame you, it is a fact.

The 'religion from middle-east' simply makes more sense to me than pagan fairy-tales. That's why I'm Christian, I don't care about origin of Christianity, I don't see a reason why should I? I mean, should we return to worshiping paintings in caves or what? That's original religion of Europe. Christian spirituality is closer to me than pagan, that's it - the same was with my pagan ancestors who converted to Christianity in 8th century.

It's like beer for example, beer also originates outside Europe, but I don't see why Europeans should not drink it. Or gunpowder, or potato, etc.



As for "dead Jew", I don't have nothing against Jews as an ethnicity, hence I'm not racial anti-Semite, my anti-Judaism is based solely on religious grounds.

So you are from the old yugoslavia? Yep. I know that Muslims have been a special problem for you through history. Do you know why?
Because as your ancesters betrayed your forfathers and became xtians.

LOL, as if....

Muslims have invaded Europe regardless of religion of Europeans. If Europe was pagan, Muslims would still be a problem...

So the lesson is don't betray the religion of your forfathers, and especially don't choose a religion from the middle-east. Both Islam and xtianism are non European.

I believe Christianity is completly European religion, although it originates outside Europe. The concept of Europe is a Christian one, before Christianity, definition of Europe was solely geographical. Define European nations and you will get the same nations that are part of European Christendom.

[Gavril]

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

Who says we Pagans worship stones and sacrifice goats?

Paganism is a quite broad term that is little more than a antonym to Christianity (or any of the other world religions). I assume that you are aware that Paganism is not a religion. You are Asatro, am I right? The Asatro in Scandinavia did sacrifice animals as a part of their Blot, as well as they worshipped the burial mounds. You have no reason to be offended.

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

A stupid a-hole like yourself? I've the right to call you an a-hole untill you prove that you are correct.

I feel thy Pagan anger. Other than that - maybe you should cool down. Consider what your rude tone is doing to the debate. Oh, and while you're at it, consider if you really want to keep fighting your brothers and sisters while extra-European forces are destroying your homeland every day.

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

If you cannot prove that we pagans does as you said. An apology would be in its place.

You pagans? The International Pagan Temple? Wiccans Worldwide? Don't flatter yourself - there is no "we, pagans" on a larger scale. There never was, either.
I don't care how you practice your religion - most knowledge of how the Asatro practiced their religion is lost, as the oral tradition was halted.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

Interesting comment.

So bashing Christianity is too personal? I'll bet that you don't think it is too personal to bash Paganism or Islam?

Svin's profile says 'non-religious'.

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

Agnostic? Well, that is what we atheists call a coward.

Why a coward? Some of the finest Europeans were agnostic, were they cowards too?

Yes. I'm first of all an atheist. Meaning I don't believe in any hokus-pokus. And I also call myself a pagan. But, I don't take our pagan stories for real as the xtians do. Our pagan stories are mythical, they are the stories of our European forfathers, I refuse to betray them.

And you have the nerve to call me a traitor of my pagan ancestors?? You are not a pagan either.

You don't believe in pagan gods - had you live in pagan times, you would be killed for that.

Xtianism developed in a middle-east or Jewish/Semistic geographic/cultural area.

Yes, you told us that at least 10 times. We got it. Is this your only argument why you are anti-Christian?

[Susi]

First and foremost, I would thank Pagandawn for replying to me (not!). Even though he's gone... I would like to point out again that paganism is an umbrella term... it is not one religion...

Secondly, I hope to the gods that you lovely folks at Stirpes don't judge me by his views... I only wish to exist and practise my religion by reading texts of the past and figuring out what they did then. Maybe it seems a little bit weird but at least I can respect other religions... I just ask for some respect for Asatru in spite of his (Pagandawn's) antics.

Indeed, in the past, Asatruars did sacrifice animals (actually the term "Asatru" and "Asatruar" are recent inventions...)... but today this is financially prohibitive for people such as myself as well as frowned upon socially. (Instead we usually sacrifice prepared food, alcohol, usually something consumable... raw meat I have heard of as well).

By the way to Pagandawn again, an atheist doesn't believe in any higher powers, so it is impossible for you to label yourself as anything but atheist. So stop f*cking with my hard work to clear the name of Asatru. I am sick and tired of everyone messing up my hard work. I read the sagas (though written by Christians, useful sources nonetheless, since they were derived from the oral tradition), I do my research, yet some stupid ignoramus with no idea about anything that has to do with the religion just decides, "hey, this sounds NORDIC. Yay, 88, 14, NORDIC POWER, xtians must die." Well eff you. Go wander off somewhere.

By the way... I don't count Wicca as a religion. Sorry, but new age garbage invented 50 years ago to me does not have any validity whatsoever.

This message has been brought to you by the menstrual cycle.

[Menydh]

Uh.. sacrifice animals?

I might consider becoming Asatru if you all agree to worship me. I can set up a bank account so that you all can share the expenses of sacrifices to me.


Plus 7 virgins a year. 7 is a sacred number, isn't it?.

[Errigal]

Isn't that girl Vanessa Paradis? The pig might have been a virgin but I'm not so sure about Vanessa.

[Menydh]

I'm not that strict

[Gavril]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I might consider becoming Asatru if you all agree to worship me.

Isn't that what Stirpes is about?

[Erasmus]

@Pagandown: my signature is my answer