Discussions on Nation and Spiritual Beliefs

[Pagandawn]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Welcome to Stirpes, and welcome to Christian Europe.

Thanks.

Yep, most of you guys seem christian. But, don't worry, I will paganize you all.

[Susano]

welcome to Christian Europe.

What? Welcolming him to the past? That is not very nice!

[Gavril]

It's one step closer to the present for a pagan...

edit: You should really explain why you see yourself as a nationalist. You support the germanization of immigrants in your country, you support individualism and its love for each man's "right" to be homosexual, you're not Christian, etc.

[Susano]

Being Christian and being German (or Spanish;F rench, Italian, whatever) has nothing to dow ithe ach other. Two differnt fields, religion and nationality. ideally, I would love to see proud nations as free and voluntary association of individuals, hold together by culture, self-identfication and pride for their nation. I know that is not what you would ideally like to see a nation be like, but, it is also a vision of "nation".

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

Yep, most of you guys seem christian. But, don't worry, I will paganize you all.

I'll go with Ljubomir.

Why would anyone want to lose hundreds of years of philosophical and spiritual evolution? Ancient Pagan spiritualism converged in Christianism in an evolutionary process.

Anyway, this was about homosexuals. I'll split the thread.

Originally Posted by Susano

Being Christian and being German (or Spanish;F rench, Italian, whatever) has nothing to dow ithe ach other. Two differnt fields, religion and nationality. ideally, I would love to see proud nations as free and voluntary association of individuals, hold together by culture, self-identfication and pride for their nation. I know that is not what you would ideally like to see a nation be like, but, it is also a vision of "nation".

Susano, we should start with saying that your concept of nation is a complete misunderstanding of what a nation is.

What you define is not nation but country. It lacks of all the elements that define a nation. An ethnic (racial) degree of homogeneity, an ethnic (cultural) degree of homogeneity and a spiritual degree of homogeneity. That is a achieved through an ethnogenesis and a consequent evolutive process.

This is not to define a nation idealisticly but realisticly.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

Thanks.

Yep, most of you guys seem christian. But, don't worry, I will paganize you all.

That's okay as long as you don't start burning churches
BTW, welcome to Stirpes!

[Breydel]

Originally Posted by Susano

Being Christian and being German (or Spanish;F rench, Italian, whatever) has nothing to dow ithe ach other. Two differnt fields, religion and nationality. ideally, I would love to see proud nations as free and voluntary association of individuals, hold together by culture, self-identfication and pride for their nation. I know that is not what you would ideally like to see a nation be like, but, it is also a vision of "nation".

culture in its very essence is what and how people speak, behave, what they believe and think, and all of those elements are directly influenced by religion and spiritual doctrines be it from the first myth to the most complex sectarian movement, the french revolution my have called it to a governantial stop, but modern democracy is still just one form of politics, the separation of church and state is a political not a traditional one

[Susano]

Susano, we should start with saying that your concept of nation is a complete misunderstanding of what a nation is.

Seeing as "nation" is indeed a concept in general, there is not one true view on it.

What you define is not nation but country. It lacks of all the elements that define a nation. An ethnic (racial) degree of homogeneity, an ethnic (cultural) degree of homogeneity and a spiritual degree of homogeneity. That is a achieved through an ethnogenesis and a consequent evolutive process.

No. You define a nation as that. Others (and that does not merely mean me) do not.

Waarnemer:
Of course every part of culture influences every other part. However, that means it indeed influences our thoughts, attitudes, decisions etc - it does by no means force them. And demanding it should force them is IMO very much wrong. So, ys, the believes of our culture may influence us, but if we wish, we can seek to free us of them.

[Breydel]

Originally Posted by Susano

Waarnemer:
Of course every part of culture influences every other part. However, that means it indeed influences our thoughts, attitudes, decisions etc - it does by no means force them. And demanding it should force them is IMO very much wrong. So, ys, the believes of our culture may influence us, but if we wish, we can seek to free us of them.

of course. In these times individually its very well possible to do so, but even then christianity keeps part of europe as cultural notion, individuals don't construct culture, groups do

[Erasmus]

Originally Posted by Pagandawn

Thanks.

Yep, most of you guys seem christian. But, don't worry, I will paganize you all.

Or we'll convert you

BTW, welcome on board!

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Susano

Seeing as "nation" is indeed a concept in general, there is not one true view on it.

It is nothing general. The way you use it is a perversion.

It originates in Latin natio and builds up from there:

nātĭo , ōnis, f. [nascor] ,

I. Personified, Natio, the goddess of birth: Natio quoque dea putanda est, quae, quia partus matronarum tueatur, a nascentibus Natio nominata est, Cic. N. D. 3, 18, 47 (al. Nascio).--

II. A breed, stock, kind, species, race (rare but class.; syn.: genus, stirps, familia): in hominibus emendis si natione alter est melior, emimus pluris, etc., Varr. L. L. 9, § 93 Müll.; Auct. B. Alex. 7, 3: natio optimatium, Cic. Sest. 44, 96 : officiosissima candidatorum, id. Pis. 23, 55 .--Also in a contemptuous sense, a race, tribe, set: salvete, fures maritimi, Famelica hominum natio, quid agitis? Plaut. Rud. 2, 2, 6 : vestra natio (Epicureorum), Cic. N. D. 2, 29, 74 : ardelionum, Phaedr. 2, 5, 1 .--Of animals: praegnantes opere levant: venter enim labore nationem reddit deteriorem, Varr. R. R. 2, 6, 4 ; cf. id. L. L. 9, § 92 Müll.; and: in pecoribus quoque bonus proventus feturae bona natio dicitur, Paul. ex Fest. p. 167 Müll.--Transf., of things, a sort, kind (post-Aug.): nationes in apium naturā diximus, Plin. 22, 24, 50, § 109 : cera natione Pontica, id. 21, 14, 49, § 83 ; cf. id. 12, 25, 55, § 125.--

B. In a more restricted sense, a race of people, nation, people (used commonly in a more limited sense than gens, and sometimes as identical with it; cf.: gens, populus; usually applied by Cicero to distant and barbarous people): nam itast haec hominum natio; in Epidamniis Voluptarii, etc., Plaut. Men. 2, 1, 34 : omnes nationes servitutem ferre possunt: nostra civitas non potest, Cic. Phil. 10, 10, 20 ; cf.: exteris nationibus ac gentibus ostendere, etc., id. Font. 11, 25 : ne nationes quidem et gentes, id. N. D. 3, 39, 93 ; cf., in the reverse order: omnes exterae gentes ac nationes, id. Imp. Pomp. 11, 31 : per omnes gentes nationesque, Quint. 11, 3, 87 : eruditissima Graecorum natio, Cic. de Or. 2, 4, 18 : Judaei et Syri, nationes natae servituti, id. Prov. Cons. 5, 10 : immanes ac barbarae nationes, id. Q. Fr. 1, 1, 9, § 27 : quod eas quoque nationes adire volebat, Caes. B. G. 3, 7 : Suevi majorem Germaniae partem obtinent, propriis adhuc nationibus nominibusque discreti, Tac. G. 38 : Gannascus, natione Canninefas, id. A. 11, 18 : patre Camissare, natione Care, matre Scythissā natus, Nep. Dat. 1, 1 : NATIONE CILIX, Inscr. Fabr. p. 495 , n. 189; so in connection with names of cities: NATIONE ARRETIO, Inscr. Don. cl. 6, n. 181.--

When such perversions of concepts are accepted, anything can be expected. A family can be anything of your interest and under a perverted form you believe to have a right in families to which you do not belong. The concept of justice can be perverted to fit your interests in such a way that it justifies murder. And so on.

It is, in short, a lie. You don't build nations with lies as foundations. The foundations have to be strong for a nation to be: they must be real.

It is incidental that I've seen other Germans stretching the concept of nation to also pervert it to fit them. Namely the nazis.

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Galaico

That's okay as long as you don't start burning churches
BTW, welcome to Stirpes!

Galaico-- I only burn churches when:

a) My day is ruined
b) Sometimes when I have PMS or am just particularly moody/bitchy



And Pagandawn: Stop being so arrogant, I may have to slay you with a battleaxe.

[Susano]

So what are you saying Myndidd? That somehow our opinions oughta be restricted by word meanings? Hah! And etymology often is funny and odd: Hardly any word that comes from an outside soruce retains that outside soruce's word's original meaning. So, no, that is no really relevant argument.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Susano

So what are you saying Myndidd? That somehow our opinions oughta be restricted by word meanings?

No. Clearly that your opinions ought to be substantianted with solid arguments. But since you are failing at that, at the very least you should use concept terms central to the context in their correct sense and not create confusion by perverting their meaning.

Hah! And etymology often is funny and odd: Hardly any word that comes from an outside soruce retains that outside soruce's word's original meaning. So, no, that is no really relevant argument.

The argument was the entire text, including but not limited to "[...] and builds up from there".