Spirituality in Europe Past & Future. Neo-Paganism: a Spiritual Vacuum?

[Menydh]

Just hot off the press, and from your country:

PARIS - Al Fath Mosque is in a scruffy immigrant neighborhood not far from the neon-lit kitsch of Pigalle. On Friday afternoons, the mosque is jammed, and the overflow of worshippers, all men, spills into the streets.

Tourists who stumble on the scene reflexively reach for their cameras, struck by this unusual public manifestation of religiosity in a country where Christian belief has become passe.

In France and in almost every other European country, Christianity appears to be in a free fall.

Although up to 88 percent of the French identify themselves as Roman Catholic, only about 5 percent go to church on most Sundays; 60 percent say they "never" or "practically never" go.

But Islam is a thriving force. The 12 million to 15 million Muslims who live in Europe make up less than 5 percent of the total population, but the vitality of their faith has led some experts to predict that Islam will become the continent's dominant faith.

Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis, the dean of American Middle East scholars, flatly predicts that Europe will be Islamic by the end of this century "at the very latest."

George Weigel, a leading American theologian, frets about "a Europe in which the muezzin summons the faithful to prayer from the central loggia of St. Peter's in Rome, while Notre Dame has been transformed into Hagia Sophia on the Seine, a great Christian church become an Islamic museum."

Lewis and Weigel represent a trend among American thinkers who say they fear Europe's doom if it does not re-Christianize, and soon.

Most European experts believe those fears are exaggerated.

France, with Europe's largest Muslim population, surely will be a test case.

Little argument exists about the severity of the crisis facing the Catholic Church in France. In contrast with the vigorous (and masculine) face that French Muslims present to the world, a typical Sunday Mass almost anywhere in France will feature an elderly priest preaching to a dwindling congregation of mostly elderly women.

"Mass is boring," said Odon Vallet, a religion professor at the Sorbonne. "The ceremony isn't very beautiful; the music is bad; the sermon is uninteresting. Mass is for people who having nothing else to do on a Sunday: no sports, no hobbies, no shopping, no entertainment."

Islam, meanwhile, is France's fastest-growing religion. But this is mainly a result of immigration patterns, not conversions.

Most of the 4.5 million Muslims who make up about 7 percent of the French population are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants from former French colonies in North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa.

Global Islam is eager for converts. But in Europe, the situation is nuanced.

Islam spreads in France

If all we can rely on is some Christian-bashing Neo-Paganists who have renegated from the faith and the spirituality of their ancestors (and, since you admit that Christianism is also a depository for the ancient pre-Christian spirituality, you cannot accuse Christians of renegating of their ancestors` spirituality), and who hope for the come of a Messiah in the form of Odin, Zeus, or perhaps Yaveh... we are defeated even before starting to fight. Our own stupidity is our worse enemy.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Segomo

PS: I am not very happy, because of football

LOL! I don`t care a bit about football. In fact I`m glad that the Spanish selection was defeated and had to return home..

... if all I have left is waving a flag after a football match, then I have nothing.

[Siegmund]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

If all we can rely on is some Christian-bashing Neo-Paganists who have renegated from the faith and the spirituality of their ancestors (and, since you admit that Christianism is also a depository for the ancient pre-Christian spirituality, you cannot accuse Christians of renegating of their ancestors` spirituality), and who hope for the come of a Messiah in the form of Odin, Zeus, or perhaps Yaveh... we are defeated even before starting to fight. Our own stupidity is our worse enemy.

I noticed a similar sign of the times today in an article about a "Muslims only" day at an English amusement park. It's fine to take an interest in history or culture - the period of the French Revolution is one of my own favorites - but from a political standpoint, isn't it time we take a hard, long look at reality?

Muslim-only Alton Towers

BRITAIN’S biggest fun park has sparked a race row — with a MUSLIMS-ONLY day.

Up to 28,000 are expected at Alton Towers on September 17 when there will be no music, booze or gambling.

Instead there will be prayer areas, Muslim stalls and all food served will be HALAL.

Organisers Islamic Leisure have billed it the First National Muslim Fun Day and tickets can only be bought through their website.

Non-Muslims phoning the Staffordshire park have been refused tickets.

One, George Hughes, 19, who rang up for 15 tickets for a pal’s birthday, said: “I couldn’t believe it.

“It’s the only day we can go, yet I can’t because I’m not Muslim. Can you imagine all the fuss if there was a Christians-only day?”

[More]

[Ederico]

Originally Posted by Segomo

And poetry ? When Dante Alghieri speak about "Jesus" as "Jupiter for us crucified" ? And the poetry full of paganism of Ronsard, Du Bellay, Byron, Goethe, Hölderlin, Nerval, Vigny, the french Parnassian school of poetry (Leconte de Lisle and so later).

I have studied Dante's work, and I'm also a student of Theology apart from that. I will not indulge in commenting on the rest of your alluding comments, however I will comment briefly on Dante.

Dante's mention of Jupiter, as that of any other person, is not proof of any adherence to classical paganism or even worse to a "reconstructed" neo-paganism which is full of modern and actually post-pagan concepts. It might be appropriate to read a critique of neo-paganism by Baron Julius Evola, not a staunch Catholic/Christian for sure.

However, returning to Dante, his use of pagan allusions is merely artistic, decorative and evocative, and not in the least theological/religious. As he mentions Jupiter, he also mentions other classical deities and classical historical figures such as Catone and Virgilio.

However, theologically, Dante's opus La Divina Commedia is an exposition of a beautiful Catholic-Christian theology reminiscent of the Middle Ages, and since you quote Dante I remind you that he wrote in those "dark ages" yet his work of art is still widely applauded in our "enlighthened" ages.

Dante's work is theologically thouroughly Catholic, and the most that one can attack is its anti-Papal bent due to secular problems with the Papacy and not theological divergences with the Catholic Faith. Moreover, there was certainly nothing authentically pagan in religious terms in Dante, especially nothing neo-pagan since the latter is really a modern concept for a pseudo-return to Europe's roots.

I believe your comments are superficial, such as the one that celebrating Christmas on the day of a previous Pagan holiday makes Christians pagan. Are you serious?

[Ederico]

I just finished re-reading this thread, noticing that I was the last poster and that my post wasn't replied to by 'our common' anti-Christian interlocutor.

As far as I'm concerned, I will make some points on Segome's thoughtstream, which effectively lacks coherent thinking, for it is common drivel on the front of the anti-Christian "right-wing".

This first post will deal with neopaganism. I will not deal with all the fallacies on the question provided by Segome, for he provided many in each and every of his post. I have to be bland, frank and direct. The likes of Segome are not comrades, but they are part of the malaise and are unwilling enemies in the internal fold of our movement for true European heritage and regeneration. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing." I say this because Segome called Mynydd "dear comrade". Mynydd is free to accept any adjectives in his regard, but I reject such statements in my regard. Moreover, I state the following, Catholic doctrine holds the notion of the freedom of conscience of every men and of the potential for redemption of every men. Thus I imply that theologically speaking I do not challenge Segome's (or any neopagan's) religious affiliation, but their political usage of it and political relationships have rules different from those of religious relationships. Thus what is a positive religious freedom in society, is not a negative political freedom in society in the sense that one designating or being himself a neopagan doesn't have any moral justification to promote an anti-Christian political agenda, which I am duty bound as a Christian to counter, attack and demolish in politics while allowing freedom of conscience and belief to my interlocutor. Our interlocutor can also promote his politics and give it a neopagan religious bent, but when doing so he makes that a political position subject to attack on political grounds. That is what he will receive from my part. Segome here is just an expression of the generic neopagan movement adhering to such trends as the "new right" et cetera, all of which I am adversary to in their religious standpoint that is in reality mostly if not exclusively an anti-Christian political standpoint.

In interpreting my responses, please consider that they are a response to so considered pro-European neopagan arguments as applied to politics, and not theological arguments against a generic neopaganism as a religious and cultural fenomena.

As a brief personal note, I myself was a sort of neopagan once and holding virtually identical views to Segome's not only on the religious level but also on the political level and not only on religious questions.


- Neopaganism is fallacious as a reconstructionist form of ancient paganism for no one with minor historical knowledge in the field can pretend to resurrect the ancient pagan traditions as they were. Thus, if they aren't resurrected as they were they are not pre-Christian forms of paganism but an attempt to fulfill a traditionalist yet anti-Christian yearn of modernity. This means that neopaganism is a new and innovative religious phenomenom having mere anti-Christianity as its founding basis and a rejection of atheism, albeit with a romanticised ancient pagan bent in its external cultural manifestations. Neopaganism as a reconstructionist form of ancient paganism is fallacious for the ancient pagan traditions are dead and befitting exposition in museums. There is no such thing as an ancient pagan tradition in our day and age, for tradition is the bestowing of heritage from one generation to the next and thus pre-Christian paganism is no longer traditional but merely statically ancestral, a mere faint remembrance of what once was and lived and which is now socially and traditionally dead.

Therefore, neopaganism fails as a reconstructionist call towards ancestral traditions as an authentic reconstruction is practically impossible.

Therefore, neopaganism fails as a traditional call for it is by far not traditional but statically ancestral, dead in history and without life as a tradition in European society.

Concluding, it must be understood that neopaganism as a religious movement is not some coherent and monolithic movement, or an organized body of mythological belief, moral doctrine and ritualistic practice standing as one per se. There is only one common base for any common neopagan front, anti-Christianity. Therefore, neopaganism is a mere negative trend, a negation of historical reality, living tradition, ancestral heritage and identitarian reality for most of Europe. Personally, negation and negative positions are not conducive to any position of strength, but to one of weakness for they are defined by "the other" and dependent on the same "the other" and not a positive expression of "the self" with the expression of "the self" being an "identity" and not a "counter-identity" dependent on the "identity" being countered. The latter is neopaganism as expressed by the likes of Segome, the former being Catholicism.

[Marcus Marulus]

"Mass is boring," said Odon Vallet, a religion professor at the Sorbonne. "The ceremony isn't very beautiful; the music is bad; the sermon is uninteresting.

There is some truth in this when we consider the modern, post-Vatican II. mass. The old Tridentine rite mass is much more dignified.

And not to speak about the fact that the modern mass has been invaded by American pop-music and Baptist "Gospel spirituals"....

[Marcus Marulus]

I am an ultra-traditionalist revolutionary what is, I think so, coherent.

What do you say about this:

Traditionalist Ultradextroconservative Impero-Monarchism

[3rdEye]

First of all, 'paganism' is not a generic term; it is not generated within what is denoted by paganism, but I can't think of any English term that would serve the same purpose anyway. Second it has become synonymous with neo-paganism, which indeed is a revival largely based on academic sources and not on tradition. Third, I am ultimately more concerned about the essences of spiritual matters than the forms.

But to claim that the beliefs and practices denoted by paganism in its older sense (not equating it with neo-paganism), for example in Sweden, died out, is nothing short of a lie. If you should push your luck and try to prove it, you'd have to resort to saying that it died out after 1931. How can I say that?

Published that year is a book, available only in Swedish as far as I know:

Klas Olofsson: Folkliv och Folkminne i Ås, Vedens och Gäsene härader i Västergötland 2, printed in Göteborg.

At this time there was still no education about paganist beliefs and practices in schools. The only institutionally embraced spirituality was lutheran protestantism. The book is based on interviews with the people in the countryside, where distinctly spiritual, animistic and local myths were present. To claim that these people adopted their beliefs from a library out of postmodern sentimentality is preposterous, because this was before modernism struck Sweden as a whole. In fact, that happened no earlier than the 1930s at any rate, and libraries existed only in the homes of the bourgoisie and upper classes.

In the 1930s a new phrase was coined: Lortsverige, meaning Dirtsweden, denoting the hitherto pre-modern state dominating the landscape everywhere except in the cities. Surely I'm not trying to smear myself with dirt for the purpose of being a real heathen or anything like that, but it would be even more strange to me to swear allegiance with modernism.

In the abovementioned book are lengthy accounts from people who had the gift to be able to see into the other side. There are no less than 300 pages of accounts of the various folkish beliefs of only a small area of Sweden, in fact it is only about a small area in central Västergötland. These are only some of the things mentioned:

Odin, Donner, Giants, Trolls, The Fairy in the woods, The Devil in the woods, The Fairy in the lake, The (female) Elves, The Naked man in the creek, The Elf or (male) Fairy, The Man with the lamp and other phenomena of light, Maran (difficult to translate, but the best I can think of is to compare it with the second part of the word 'nightmare').

Again I don't call myself a paganist. I just think that it's fair to consider things as they are, and not to try to force entire Europe and its past into one mould.

I have personally met several persons who have similar beliefs, who received them from an old relative, who in turn received them from an older and now dead relative. Therefore I think that we should not be so certain that all 'paganism' (for lack of a better term) is just postmodern ressentiment.

That's pretty much all I have to say about the matter. Discussions about neopaganism and its peculiarities are of no real interest to me.

[Ederico]

Ascribing lies to myself is proof of lack of accurate cognition of my statements and the context I am replying to. As I have stated in my previous post, kindly consider that I provided:

"In interpreting my responses, please consider that they are a response to so considered pro-European neopagan arguments as applied to politics, and not theological arguments against a generic neopaganism as a religious and cultural fenomena."

Therefore, for courtesy's sake, before ascribing lies to someone use your intellect and don't act in preposterous manners by ascribing lies to someone where deficiency in cognition of my argument and its context is provided by your part. Stating that someone states a lie is stating that that someone is a liar, and when that someone is myself I take offence to it. One can accuse me (rightly or wrongly) of being exceedingly assertive or aggressive, even arrogant and domineering and what else, but never a liar.

Now, recheck my previous post and reconsider particularly that part that I quoted in this post. I take note of your introductory paragraph, but then state that according to it your reply was unneeded especially since I was dealing with a pan-Europeanist neopagan espousing reconstructionism who is a Frenchman but who talks about "European nationalism". That is the person I was replying to, and the ancient paganism I am referring to is specifically that of this part of Europe in particular, and not some thought of identical all-European neopaganism barely known substantially by researchers seeking to reconstruct it and restore it (let alone the supposedly prospective "faithful" populace).

Secondly, consider the context involved and the debating parties. This involved Segome, a Frenchman, and myself being Maltese. I am here replying to a definite standpoint but you enter into the question with a different and contextually unrelated standpoint. We are not Swedish. You inadvertedly aided me for your inadequate rebuttal to myself should be ample proof to Segome that something as a "European identity" and a "European nationalism" on which he bases himself, coupled with his nonsensical neopaganism as a political tool, and nothing more than a political tool masked as a religion and folklore it is, is inexistant and impractical if tradition, heritage and identity and not revolution is to his heart. That should make you, Seekers, and myself both happy. However, Malta and France have no real popular vestige of ancient paganism as a popular practice which is traditional and practised and identified as a form of ancient paganism. Moreover, even though I doubt the consistency of their pagan practices in Sweden and there social relevance, I'm not Swedish and I don't pretend to speak for Sweden.

However, calling me a liar when one even failed to understand the context involved and my advice for interpretation of my post, just demonstrates that you are speaking of something that is unrelated to the argument I was introducing with Segome. I accept no one's ascribing to myself as a liar.

However, thanks for the worthy information on Sweden. It fortifies me in my conviction that the notion of a non-Christian (and non revolutionary/masonic) "Europe" and a "common European identity" is drivel or watered at best. Segome and those having a similar thought should take note.

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by Ederico

Ascribing lies and preposterous statements to myself is proof of lack of accurate cognition of my statements and the context I am replying to.

I did no such thing. My post is not an answer to you as a person nor to any other person in particular, nor did I lead astray the topic with my post, especially not so since the question of a possible authentic paganism was already raised by another poster and contested by yet another poster. On the contrary, my post is most relevant to the topic as stated in the title.