A question for the Christians

[Gil]

Last night I had a discussion with my brother-in-law about Jesus and it's ethnicity. He is a staunch christian (catholic), and he argued that:

a) Jesus was a hebrew and not a jew
b) Jesus was not a rabbi as some claim
c) Jesus represents the separation of God and the jewish people and it's bond with Christianity

His arguments were that though Jesus was a hebrew (semite) he was not a jew because the hebrews were the chosen people of God but the hebrews that did not accept jesus as their messiah became jews, followers of Judaism and not of Christ, the Messiah.
Also, he said that comparing Jesus to a Rabbi is like comparing a catholic Priest to a Shinto Priest (both are "holy man" but of very different beliefs and behaviours).

I would just like to hear the opinions of the Stirpes' folk, christians and non-christians.

Cheers

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Manji

Last night I had a discussion with my brother-in-law about Jesus and it's ethnicity. He is a staunch christian (catholic), and he argued that:

a) Jesus was a hebrew and not a jew

In a sense, that is correct.
Most Jews today are not of Hebrew heritage. Any who are are likely Sephardic Jews. The Ashkenazic Jews are not of Semitic origin. Genetics show them to be more Turkic in origin.

Also, the Judaism of today is not much like the religion of the Hebrews of old.
The Torah has been superceded by the Talmud, Kabbalah and other commentaries and mysticism. There is obviously a large influence from the Babylonian captivity which has grown.

That is a large part of the reason why Jesus condemned the Pharisees. Already, they had the oral traditions which would eventually become the Talmud. Jesus said that they had replaced the word of God with mere human traditions that burdened men with trivialities.

b) Jesus was not a rabbi as some claim

True, his disciples reffered to him as Rabbi at times. This simply means they saw him as a teacher. There is nothing to suggest he was an actual rabbi though.

c) Jesus represents the separation of God and the jewish people and it's bond with Christianity

Indeed, that is the entire message of Christianity.
Christ annuled the Old Covenant made with Moses. The Jews have been caste out of "the Kingdom" for repadtedly being unfaithful to God. The are no longer the "Chosen". In fact, for the murder of their saviour they have become cursed, rather. The death of Christ on the Cross coincides with the veil of the Temple being ripped in two. This symbolises God's break with the Jews. He instead institutes the "New and Everlasting Covenant". The Gentiles now recieve God and his Kingdom instead. Christians become the Children of God.

It is interesting that although modern Jews don't officially believe any of this, medieval Kabbalism actually makes references to the fact that the Gentiles have gained the holiness that the jews lost. Rabbi Isaac Luria wrote of ways to regain God's favour. The idea being that by corrupting Christians through apostacy and vice, God will turn from them and give his favour back to the Jews.

Of course, the will of God cannot be perverted by mere men. But that highlights the arrogance of these people

[Ederico]

Yes Manji, your brother-in-law is correct, as adeguately expressed by Milesian.

I will be studying Theology (together with Law) for the next 3 years at University, if I am accepted at least. Might give more information on such matters.

[Faísca]

Originally Posted by Manji

a) Jesus was a hebrew and not a jew

There were no jews in Galilee. Only Gentiles and a few Israelites lived in Galilee because, at the time of an earlier generation, King Sargon I of Assyria conquered Palestine and removed most of the Israelites from Galilee and settled them in another part of his farflung empire. He brougth in Gentiles from another part of his empire and settled them in Galilee along with few Israelites that he allowed to remain there. That is why the Bible calls it Galilee of the Gentiles in Matthew, 4:12-19.

12 And when Jesus had heard that John was delivered up, he retired into Galilee:

13 And leaving the city Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capharnaum on the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim;

14 That it might be fulfilled which was said by Isaias the prophet:

15 Land of Zabulon and land of Nephthalim, the way of the sea beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles:

16 The people that sat in darkness, hath seen great light: and to them that sat in the region of the shadow of death, light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

18 And Jesus walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea (for they were fishers).

19 And he saith to them: Come ye after me, and I will make you to be fishers of men.

b) Jesus was not a rabbi as some claim

John 8:42-55

42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me:

43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word.

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not.

46 Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me?

47 He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.

48 The Jews therefore answered, and said to him: Do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49 Jesus answered: I have not a devil: but I honour my Father, and you have dishonoured me.

50 But I seek not my own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.

52 The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself?

54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God.

55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word.

Just my tidbit.