Catharism, the religion of the Cathars

[Aeternitas]

http://www.cathars.org/html/catharisme.html

[Carnyx]

Interesting. Thanks for posting this. I'm gonna convert.

[Alkman]

Cathars were gratly influenced from the survivors of the Bogomil sect,mostly Bulgarians and Bosnians, who fled in Southern France and Spain after the persecutions of the Eastern church.
The similarities between these two sects are striking.

[Carnyx]

Anyway, both of them were "heresy".

[Milesian]

I would think that the Cathar religion would be even more unpalatable to the modern hedonist sensibilities of today's people including as it did

i) the idea that everything of the flesh was evil,
ii) marriage was unlawful,
iii) perpetual chastity was encouraged
iv) so was abandonment of any current husbands or wives
v) long, frequent fasts were observed
vi) Suicide by voluntary starvation (Endura) was commendable

Surely even Catholicism is more fun than that

[Aeternitas]

Surely even Catholicism is more fun than that

One can't expect to hear otherwise from a Catholic After all, you launched a whole Crusade against them

"Heresy" or not, it's an interesting subject
I was also curious about possible modern day Cathars and this is what I found:

Do Cathars Still Exist Today?

It depends what you mean. If you mean "Are there people living today who claim to be Cathars ?", then the answer is Yes. If you mean "Are there people who live like cathars, and believe what the Cathars believed ?", then the answer is also Yes. But neither of these answers tells the whole story. For example, quite a few of the people calling themselves Cathars will tell you that they are reincarnated Cathar Parfaits. But a central Cathar belief was that on their deaths Parfaits were released from the cycle of rebirth. Which means that either these modern Cathars hold to a belief system that they know to be wrong, or that they are impostors who have not troubled to do their homework. A more interesting question is whether any Cathars living today can claim a continuous chain of succession from the Parfaits of the thirteenth century. The reason that this is significant is that the Cathars themselves claimed a continual chain of descent, each Parfait having joined the inner circle of the Elect by being given the Consolamentum by an existing Parfait. There therefore existed a continuous chain of succession from any Parfait all the way back to the original biblical Pentecost. (If this looks suspiciously like the doctrine of Apostolic Succession claimed by Catholic and other mainstream bishops, it is worth bearing in mind that the mainstream Church is known to have copied the idea from a Gnostic sect in the fourth century, and then fabricated lines of apostolic succession for the missing centuries).
After the depredations of the Inquisition in the fourteenth century, the chain of succession was restored in the Languedoc by two brothers who travelled to Piedmont to receive the Consolamentum from a Parfait there. But this line was apparently exterminated with the burning of Guillem Belibaste in 1321. The Italian line was exterminated by the Roman Church soon after, and in the fifteenth century the Balkan line was suppressed, or absorbed, by Islam, which shares the characteristically Gnostic belief that Jesus was not a man but a divine phantom. Did a secret succession survive from any of these traditions, or from any of the more remote Eastern ones? Perhaps. No one seems to know for sure. But even if not, all of their principal beliefs are to be found in one or another Christian sect. Even the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is mistakenly worshipping the Evil God is still current (Jehovah's Witnesses for example believe this). Also, perhaps significantly, you never hear anyone talking about God in the Languedoc, always specifically the Good God.

Source

[Carnyx]

Yep, they do. I'm one of them. But keep your secret secret.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

One can't expect to hear otherwise from a Catholic After all, you launched a whole Crusade against them

Yes, and obviously it was done just because the Catholic Church is intrinsically eeeeeeeevil!

"Heresy" or not, it's an interesting subject

It's not just heresy, it's totally destructive.
Even Protestant historians have concluded that the crusade against them was of the utmost necessity for the common good. Let's be honest, they don't tend to give us the benefit of the doubt unless they have no other choice

Anyway, there have been far more interesting heretics over the last two millenia

I was also curious about possible modern day Cathars and this is what I found:

You don't have to look further than the Freemasons

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Milesian

You don't have to look further than the Freemasons

Isn't this comparison a bit hazardous and subjective? I mean, nobody knows exactly what really was Catharism. One wrote all and anything on Catharism.
Freemasons are more a conspiracy network, a gathering to influence. I don't see it in Catharism. Do I have a too romantic vision of Catharism?

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by M.Duchemin

Isn't this comparison a bit hazardous and subjective? I mean, nobody knows exactly what really was Catharism. One wrote all and anything on Catharism.

If we go on conteporary writings of the time, then I believe there is indeed marked similarities. It is believe that the Knights Templar fell into Catharism amongst other things. Some Templars did relocate to Scotland (re: Rosslyn Chapel) and in time their doctrines seem to have re-emerged with the Freemasons, whom also allude to Cathar origins.

Someone did a study on it once, I will see if I can dig it up again although I migt have to re-type it all if I can't find it online.

Freemasons are more a conspiracy network, a gathering to influence. I don't see it in Catharism.

Several of their beliefs rings true with each other.

Do I have a too romantic vision of Catharism?

Probably

[Perun]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

After all, you launched a whole Crusade against them

Well thats what you get when you decide to go around and assasinate officials of the Church.

"Heresy" or not, it's an interesting subject

Possibly, but like the topic of the Knights Templars, theres too much New Age BS that gets involved in the discussion. This is especially true when concerning the issue of the Holy Grail and how the Cathars supposedly possesed it.

One thing I found interesting about the Cathars was their teachings that God didnt care if you had intercourse with a Jew or Muslim.

[Menydh]

Catharism was a dualistic religion

Occitania was not just about Catharism, and reducing the Occitan soul and identity today to an esoteric and neo-hippy catharism is a shame

The crusade against the albigensi was infamous, and driven by the greed of the men from the north, the French (or Franks.. whatever..). Its goal wasn't religion, but to seize the prosperous lands of Oc

Europe, in all its grandeur, is a making of a strong, hierarchical, and unifying religion. With Catharism the results would have been most probably the same that we are living these days, but many centuries earlier. And worst, I doubt that there would be one single man who would oppose it... at least not from the camp of Catharism.


But I guess that people are too bored and too certain that we have no future, and so all these esoteric and free-sexing things make as much as sense anything else.

You all get a life

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Perun

One thing I found interesting about the Cathars was their teachings that God didnt care if you had intercourse with a Jew or Muslim.

Perhaps not overly suprising

Originally Posted by N.A.Weber

The rise and spread of the new doctrine in southern France was favoured by various circumstances, among which may be mentioned: the fascination exercised by the readily-grasped dualistic principle; the remnant of Jewish and Mohammedan doctrinal elements;......

[Menydh]

The rise and spread of the new doctrine in southern France was favoured by various circumstances, among which may be mentioned: the fascination exercised by the readily-grasped dualistic principle; the remnant of Jewish and Mohammedan doctrinal elements;...

Yes, there is truth in that.