Do Heaven and Hell exist?

[Phlegethon]

Well, Phlegethon definitely exists.

[Kevin_OKeeffe]

Hell is merely a metaphor for the depths of human misery.

Heaven is either A) the state we achieve upon reunification with the force/being of which we were once a part, and which created this Universe, as we achieve sufficient enlightenment to be worthy (and thus able) to achieve said reunification OR B) a "big rock-candy mountain" fairy tale that serves the vital evolutionary purpose of inspiring young men to give their lives for the greater good. Being an agnostic, I (rather by definition) am unable to decide which of these I believe is true.

[ÅnÐReS]

I don't think there is a Heaven or a Hell in the way that is described by religion. I think is more like a metaphor about our life here on Earth, like when someone is having a very hard time and says "i'm in hell".

If you work hard and do everything right, things will look up for you. But if you screw everything up and make mistakes all the time, your life will suck (you'll "live in hell"). I see it that way.

Originally Posted by Rusalka

Because they're told that this world is full of injustice but they should endure and lead good lives after which they are promised Heaven. No questioning the authority, that's a sin, and don't worry: the poor, the sick and the meek will inherit the next life anyway so you might as well forget about this one. Perfect arrangement.

Exactly. The idea of a better next life makes people not worrying about who rules them in this life. Very convenient for those who want to stay in power.

Is not that i don't believe in an afterlife, is just there is no way for one to know. I mean, you die and that's it. Whether you get to live that afterlife or not there's no chance for going back to the former life (this one) and tell everyone about it.

[ÅnÐReS]

Originally Posted by Awar

We get rewarded for being obedient to commendments from an old holy scripture ( which could easily be fake ), and then what?

We live in this reward forever? We enjoy ourselves?!
We never ever do anything anymore...and God keeps us around because we're nice people?!

C'mon! This is so obviously a concept born out of human hope for something 'better',
I can't find words to explain how typically HUMAN it is.

So, the almighty has nothing else to do, except test us?
Doesn't it all sound a little too self-centered to you?
What does God do that isn't closely connected to upkeeping his flock of limited pets?

So, ok, to God, we're pets, his Sims video-game, but what else does he do except playing with us? Does he just fling lifeless rocks and gas-giants around universe all day for fun? An occasional super-nova lightshow... and... what else?

So, since he created us in his image, he looks like a guy... who just floats there ( is he dressed at all ), he has a nose and lungs ( like we do ), but he doesn't use them, because an almighty God certainly doesn't NEED to breathe, or eat, ok, maybe he shape-shifts from time to time... and what else is there?

So, after we die, we join him, and just like, hang around with Him, forever.
Do we take part in some cool Good vs. Evil war? We, the Good guys, versus the Evil guys ( who are evil because they are against us ), even though God is almighty, and he created them too, so there's not much point to their existence except tormenting guys and gals on earth.

So, back to geometry of things. This religious concept of Life, Death and Afterlife
seems to be a shabby line with lots of interruptions... kinda like scribblings of a child.
Compared to the perfection of the existing laws of nature and life itself, that is.

If there really is a god who has a personality, and who gives us free will,
I'm sure he's at least a bit annoyed with the arrogance of religion, its imperfection
when compared to the perfection of existing laws... like that of gravity

Ahhh!!!! You evil siner! How dare you?!!

You're going straight to hell!!!

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

I believe that also the perfect laws of nature evolved through "mutation and selection". As an example, if only one of the four fundamental forces (strong interaction, electromagnetic force, weak force and gravity) would be adjusted slightly different, the universe could never have existed. This fact is often used by creationists (people who believe in creation) as a proof for a higher entity.
There are, however, theories about multiple universes, each one with different adjusted fundamental forces. The well adjusted bring forth stars, galaxies and planets, while the badly adjusted simply implode. One can visualize this as an expanding foam, each bubble representing a universe and the stable ones containing matter. It´s called inflationary cosmos theory.

Because of the exquisite fine tuning of the universe, the atheist must believe in the existence of a "super universe" which randomly spews out universes with differing physical laws. But what scientific evidence exists to support this model?

Not only is there no evidence, the physics of our own universe requires that we will never be able to obtain evidence about any other universe (even if one does exist). Therefore this belief is, and always will be, based solely upon blind faith.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Not only is there no evidence, the physics of our own universe requires that we will never be able to obtain evidence about any other universe (even if one does exist).

This is true but, for example, also the details of quantum physics aren´t plumable by definiton. Still quantum physics is a valid field of research.

Therefore this belief is, and always will be, based solely upon blind faith.

It´s a scientific theory which, in my opinion, fits quite good into the big picture. Nobody who doesn´t believe it will be burned on a pyre or threatened with eternal punishment in some afterlife. And I´m quite sure those cosmologists who brought up the theory didn´t base it on virgin birth, angelic appearances and painted drapery.

edit: More on the inflationary cosmos theory

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Awar

Surely, our lives and destinies are insignificant when compared to the almighty.

Very adroit

Besides, we can act however we want, but, out of benevolence
great catastrophes can arise. Out of charity, eons of suffering.

Are we responsible for any 'evil' our short-sighted benevolence might cause?

If not, then how are we responsible for the evils we cause out of
our short-sighted malevolences.

Can you give some examples?

So, if there were any other ways to achieve eternal bliss, would you try them? For example, if there were three different gods, each offering a unique path towards eternal bliss.

One offering eternal bliss through charity, humility and benevolence,
the other offering eternal bliss through evildoings and arrogance,
the third offering eternal bliss in the afterlife after a life of as much beer-drinking as possible.

Yes, the third 'God of Beer' might sound a bit illogical and irrational,
but the other two are not any more logical or rational than him.

The answers would be as irrelevant as the hypothetical scenario you have set up

Old does not equal right, or true.

I never said it did.

And then what?

Note the word - eternal

So, do you hope for an eternity of enjoying in vices, after a relatively short lifetime of virtue. I think that's perverse.

No, but I thought you might
Actually what I said was that I would consider Heaven to offer something far more satsifying that earthly vices. Not that it would offer superior vices.

So, basically, we're obedient, nice people, who are honoured and rewarded for being obedient and nice. So, what after that?

I assume that the constant repetition of this question indicates that the concept of eternity causes you a problem? Infinity is a recognised value in science and maths as well, so this suprisies me somewhat. If we accept that God is outside of space and time, then "after" is a meaningless concept.

Hell is the opposite of paradise. Hope vs. Fear.

A truism. But you said belief in an afterlife was merely vain hope. Yet belief in Hell disproves this simplistic analysis.

Like we all hope we'll get rich, and fear poverty.

I don't particularly care if I get rich, in all honesty.
As long as I have enough money to live comfortably and support myself and my family then I will be quite happy. Perhaps I lack ambition

Not very divine concepts really. They smell of humanity.

I like humanity, personally. What with being human and all

Perhaps it's not important what suits our expectations, hopes or fears,
perhaps it's the reality of the matter that is important.

My point exactly. I was just addressing your own suggestion that belief in the afterlife was rooted in expectations, hopes and fears.

So, basically, you're a fence-sitting agnostic.

Where did I say that? I said I do not know what God does outside of his concerns with us. That is not agnosticism.

Is the bible on a need-to-know basis then? God's little informative booklet about what he wants from us, while the rest of his existence is left unknown... because it's irrelevant... hmm...

Well frst I should clarify that I do not regard the bible as the "instruction book" on our lives as I am not an adherent of Sola Sciptura.

But I think this might be a fair assumption.
If we assume we were created for a purpose then it would make sense that we are given the knowledge that we need. Although we might like to know the working of the universe (assuming we were even able to comprehend it in it's entirety), there isn't any real reason why we should be made aware of it.

A trainee car mechanic might like to know how a nuclear power plant operates, but it's unlikely his employers will give him that kind of knowledge for the simple reason that he doesn't need to know it. What use could such knowledge be to him to carry out his purpose of fixing cars?

By the same token, if the intricate workings of the Universe or what God does in his spare time are not necessary for us to know then it's reasonable to think he wouldn't bother telling us. We seem to have enough trouble doing what is asked of us without filling our heads with useless trivia

Perhaps that knowledge will be revealed to us in the afterlife though.
Perhaps that will be your reward

Basically, we can't know this, so, let's all just be agnostic

So defeatist

Who are you then to say what's his authentic word, and what isn't?
Who is any one of us to say whats divine, when we simply cannot know?

You have left the original intention somewhat, which was that if God is omnipotent and our creator thenwhat right have we to tell him he's is right or wrong or what he can and cannot do.

Now, you are on the topic of who has authority to pronounce God's will?
I suppose the answer would be different for everyone. For me, Christ gives the Pope and the Church authority to speak for him, as promised in scriptures.

But the pope is?

If you say so

Well, I don't ask if you know, I just ask you to inspect the belief,
and see if it reeks too much on earthly origins

One thing you can be assured, I have inspected my beliefs.
As an ex-atheist that is pretty much guaranteed

That's what I thought even without reading any of the theologians,
but, then... why was He so vague, and why such inconsistency in being vague and then being straight and clear.

Who is "He"? God?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean

As if parts of the bible were written to appeal and to be intelligible to
the most common man, while other parts are pure esotherics.

Well, you have to bear in mind certain things such as the bible was completed just under 2000 years ago. Expressions and meanings that might be clear to those people then might not be familiar to us.
Also the bible has been translated and edited countless times so words and phrases have changed and altered to some degree.

If only they had kept it in Latin....

As if it was written by many different people over a long course of time,

That's because it was

and not by a single universal perfect being.

I don't know any Christians who believe that God Himself wrote the Bible.
Muslims and Mormons believe that their holy Books were Divinely Authored, true.
Christians believe that the Bible was Divinely Inspired, yet written by men.
This is taken to be self-evident

Or the author(s) of the bible thought a bit ahead.

Clever sods, eh?

Not yet

Well, I'm sure you'll go straight to the top

I'm comparing the perfection of nature and it's existing laws to
the imperfection of human creations and concepts, such as society,
scientific inventions, religions

Perhaps due to the former being created by a perfect being (God) and the latter being products of imperfect beings (men)

...and the further inspection of this would bring us a religious man
who would say "it's not known to me", and "lord works in mysterious ways" etc. etc. right?

?

Because it says so in a book, but other than that, it's impossible to see it.
Bump into his mercy, witness his justice etc.

Not not simply because it says so in the scriptures. again, I am not a devotee of Sola Scripture, so even without the Bible I would still believe these things. The sterotype of the bible-bashing Christian will have to be reserved for some Evangelical type, I'm afraid

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

This is true but, for example, also the details of quantum physics aren´t plumable by definiton. Still quantum physics is a valid field of research.

Of course, as long as one doesn't treat theories as if they were facts.

It´s a scientific theory which, in my opinion, fits quite good into the big picture.

Fine, but "fitting in" doesn't necessarily = fact

Nobody who doesn´t believe it will be burned on a pyre

Unlike Christians who roam the country burning un-believers you mean?
True, we do get all the fun, don't we?

or threatened with eternal punishment in some afterlife.

Bah, oblivion is just a convenient concept to make you brave in your apostacy

And I´m quite sure those cosmologists who brought up the theory didn´t base it on virgin birth, angelic appearances and painted drapery.

No, although their theories have been no less incredible, far-fetched or unlikely

edit: More on the inflationary cosmos theory

Thanks for the link

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Of course, as long as one doesn't treat theories as if they were facts.

I merely say that it is the most convincing cosmological theory today. My ideals and goals aren´t based on it and should it be disproven, nothing will have changed.

Religion, however, is something people are blindly willing to die and kill for and that´s what makes it a dangerous toy in the hands of the wrong people. Who ever threw away his life for science beside a handful of idealists?

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Milesian

The answers would be as irrelevant as the hypothetical scenario you have set up

There's a multitude of religions who all outright claim to be 'perfect', and
'in touch with god(s)'. The level of their lack of sense, and weirdness varies.

Science doesn't claim to be perfect, it evolves as it gathers knowledge,
and once something is proven and established, there's no place for different paths.

Note the word - eternal

So, the eternal role of god is to reward humans for acting in accordance to his commendments.

Is it like an eternal Oscar ceremony?

No, but I thought you might
Actually what I said was that I would consider Heaven to offer something far more satsifying that earthly vices. Not that it would offer superior vices.

So, eternal bliss... reward for passing the test.

You know, usually, when you pass some test, that means you're eligible for
something, usually a place of great responsibility

I assume that the constant repetition of this question indicates that the concept of eternity causes you a problem? Infinity is a recognised value in science and maths as well, so this suprisies me somewhat. If we accept that God is outside of space and time, then "after" is a meaningless concept.

Nah, I don't have a problem with the concept of eternity,
it's the concept of reward or punishment that's so interesting to me.

As if someone invented that concept so he could impress humans, but keep them obedient and subservient. So, either taught in childhood, or acquired at some point through society... As if

A truism. But you said belief in an afterlife was merely vain hope. Yet belief in Hell disproves this simplistic analysis.

Nope, it doesn't. It's just another sort of 'boost',
because it's either 'eternal bliss', or 'eternal suffering'.
One to strive for, the other to fear from.

Nice concept. In fact, I wouldn't mind being on the right side of that concept.

I'm not anti-religious, I think religion is a wonderful tool to enslave masses.
I'd certainly use religion, if I was a ruler.

I don't particularly care if I get rich, in all honesty.
As long as I have enough money to live comfortably and support myself and my family then I will be quite happy. Perhaps I lack ambition

That's irrelevant. I mentioned riches as just one of the things people
want, and strive for.

My point exactly. I was just addressing your own suggestion that belief in the afterlife was rooted in expectations, hopes and fears.

But, it's basis for most religions, so...

Where did I say that? I said I do not know what God does outside of his concerns with us. That is not agnosticism.

Oh yes it is.

So, god's work outside his 'playing with and rewarding humans' isn't mentioned in any old book, so you don't concern yourself with it.

Well frst I should clarify that I do not regard the bible as the "instruction book" on our lives as I am not an adherent of Sola Sciptura.

But I think this might be a fair assumption.
If we assume we were created for a purpose then it would make sense that we are given the knowledge that we need. Although we might like to know the working of the universe (assuming we were even able to comprehend it in it's entirety), there isn't any real reason why we should be made aware of it.

Or, in fact, people don't know, and aren't just GIVEN anything.
You know, we TAKE knowledge, gather it, try to make sense out of it,
based on things we can sense.

A trainee car mechanic might like to know how a nuclear power plant operates, but it's unlikely his employers will give him that kind of knowledge for the simple reason that he doesn't need to know it. What use could such knowledge be to him to carry out his purpose of fixing cars?

Not a good analogy. The trainee car mechanic has free will, and the capacity to LEARN how a nuclear powerplant works.
In fact, he also LEARNED how to fix cars, he wasn't born with that knowledge.

His knowledge about fixing cars comes from generations of other mechanics who worked on that problem. It wasn't just faxed from God.
Both the knowledge, and the subject of that knowledge evolved over time.

By the same token, if the intricate workings of the Universe or what God does in his spare time are not necessary for us to know then it's reasonable to think he wouldn't bother telling us. We seem to have enough trouble doing what is asked of us without filling our heads with useless trivia

Actually, I think esotherics is useless trivia. The concept of Heaven and Hell are useless trivia.

What should concern us most is our life, not the afterlife. Our posterity, not our 'immortal soul'.

Perhaps that knowledge will be revealed to us in the afterlife though.
Perhaps that will be your reward

Or, perhaps we just die and cease existing.
It's a bit discouraging thought, but it's that much more of a challenge to
try to achieve more during our lives.

If the only enjoyment we'll ever get will be during the few decades we have of life, and the same destiny awaits our children, we can at least try to make it a healthier, more rewarding existence.

You have left the original intention somewhat, which was that if God is omnipotent and our creator thenwhat right have we to tell him he's is right or wrong or what he can and cannot do.

So, even if God does exist, what makes you think that ANY of the religions existing are actually in accordance to His wishes?

Perhaps a book is just a book, full of more or less clever HUMAN words and concepts.

Now, you are on the topic of who has authority to pronounce God's will?
I suppose the answer would be different for everyone. For me, Christ gives the Pope and the Church authority to speak for him, as promised in scriptures.

So, basically, you believe in the scriptures, and not in God Almighty.

The almighty God, who uses typical HUMAN media to make "his" word heard.

One thing you can be assured, I have inspected my beliefs.
As an ex-atheist that is pretty much guaranteed

Being an ex-atheist doesn't make you infallible

Who is "He"? God?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean

"He" is whoever who wrote whichever "scripture".

Well, you have to bear in mind certain things such as the bible was completed just under 2000 years ago. Expressions and meanings that might be clear to those people then might not be familiar to us.
Also the bible has been translated and edited countless times so words and phrases have changed and altered to some degree.

If only they had kept it in Latin....

Indeed, so very HUMAN to error like that. As opposed to perfection found everywhere else around us.

That's because it was

...and these people's co-author was God himself, right?
He should've hired another writer, to check fo inconsistencies and
continuity.

I don't know any Christians who believe that God Himself wrote the Bible.
Muslims and Mormons believe that their holy Books were Divinely Authored, true.
Christians believe that the Bible was Divinely Inspired, yet written by men.
This is taken to be self-evident

Another attempt to account for human errors.

Frankly, that's what I'd say if I was cornered.

Clever sods, eh?

Clever sods indeed.

Well, I'm sure you'll go straight to the top

Where do I apply?

Perhaps due to the former being created by a perfect being (God) and the latter being products of imperfect beings (men)

Very convenient

Not not simply because it says so in the scriptures. again, I am not a devotee of Sola Scripture, so even without the Bible I would still believe these things. The sterotype of the bible-bashing Christian will have to be reserved for some Evangelical type, I'm afraid

I think that's largely irrelevant.
It's not the bible or whatever scripture, it's the blind belief
in something which was set as absolute truth that must not be questioned.

[trinacria]

What a great thread.

As a child, I was raised in a devoutly Catholic family. The idea of religion was sort of a forced matter for me, so I think this is why I reject it as much as I do today. It was always "do this, do that, blah blah blah.. go to heaven, don't give into temptation or you'll go to hell."

I really don't believe in a heaven or hell per se. Honestly it would be a beautiful thing if we could all go to paradise together and live it up, but I don't think it's true. I think we just die. Our senses stop functioning. We're not conscious. Everything just stops.

Though if I'm in a good mood I toy around with the notion of reincarnation.

And if I'm in a really good mood I'll think how nice it would be to end up in heaven, but then my senses kick in and I know I know better.