The delicate relationship between religion and politics [split]

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Yes, some might interpret this article in that manner. I just say: God save us from neoconnish Christianity (or "Judaeo-Christianity", or "Judaeo-Christian values", or what other rhetorical monstrosities they devise to describe their misuse of religious identity of the so-called "West", as they perceive it). The author of this article is probably no Christian at all, just someone who takes into accounts the so-called "Christian roots" of what he calls West, with some clearly political implications. In this way he is Islamic of the kind because in Islam religion is tightly connected with politics.

Unfortunately, not too few Catholics are the same in that regard. Maybe I will step on someone's toes now, or maybe not, but for example there is the so called "Catholic Worker's Movement" which is heavily political in nature, no? And I have seen members of Stirpes with "Catholic" in their politics field, at which I was tempted to just say that Catholicism is not a political doctrine. Also, there are Catholics who say about the Holy Roman Empire that it was "a good Catholic state" - contradiction in terms as I see it, but obviously it isn't for all Catholics. It doesn't mean that Catholicism is intrinsically political, but many Catholics think it should be.

[Delbáeth]

I pretty much agree with Gnist in the sense that Christianity has in the past be used as a political tool.

Instead of using Catholicism as an example, I think that using Protestantism would be better suited, as in my opinion the Reformation and Protestantism lie exclusivley in politics and has been continued to be used as a political tool every since.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Delbáeth

I pretty much agree with Gnist in the sense that Christianity has in the past be used as a political tool.

Instead of using Catholicism as an example, I think that using Protestantism would be better suited, as in my opinion the Reformation and Protestantism lie exclusivley in politics and has been continued to be used as a political tool every since.

I don't think that they are exclusively about politics, to be fair, but surely there are very good contemporary examples of what could happen to any church that goes political:

A brief history of protestantism in Sweden

Something similar could happen also to Catholicism. It happened in the past, and it could happen again.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by Gnist

Unfortunately, not too few Catholics are the same in that regard. Maybe I will step on someone's toes now, or maybe not, but for example there is the so called "Catholic Worker's Movement" which is heavily political in nature, no? And I have seen members of Stirpes with "Catholic" in their politics field, at which I was tempted to just say that Catholicism is not a political doctrine. Also, there are Catholics who say about the Holy Roman Empire that it was "a good Catholic state" - contradiction in terms as I see it, but obviously it isn't for all Catholics. It doesn't mean that Catholicism is intrinsically political, but many Catholics think it should be.

You are right, there are such attempts to make a purely political ideology out of Catholicism, but it is deeply wrong and contrary to the teaching of the Church. I am totally and irreconcilably opposed to such views, there can be no such thing as "Catholic state". A state can be Catholic only in a sense that a majority of its inhabitants professes that faith or that the Catholic Church has an important role in the public life of the respective country, but no state can be "Catholic" in its essence. Even in the Papal State of yore (Patrimonium Sancti Petri, ceased to exist in 1870, when Garibaldians took Rome) there was division between temporal and spiritual sphere.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Gnist

Also, there are Catholics who say about the Holy Roman Empire that it was "a good Catholic state" - contradiction in terms as I see it, but obviously it isn't for all Catholics.

The Holy Roman Empire was an attempt to manipulate the Church as a political instrument in favour of the Germanic kings, starting with Otto I's investiture of bishops and abbots, and his deposing of the Popes John XII and Benedict V.

It doesn't mean that Catholicism is intrinsically political, but many Catholics think it should be.

Not many do. In fact few do. But there are orders like the Jesuits that are strongly theocracists.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Menydh

The Holy Roman Empire was an attempt to manipulate the Church as a political instrument in favour of the Germanic kings, starting with Otto I's investiture of bishops and abbots, and his deposing of the Popes John XII and Benedict V.

You must mean German Emperors.

Originally Posted by Menydh

Not many do. In fact few do. But there are orders like the Jesuits that are strongly theocracists.

You seem to be saying that it is an intrinsically Catholic phenomenon, which nota bene I did not say.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Gnist

You must mean German Emperors.

Since they were invested as such, by the papacy.

You seem to be saying that it is an intrinsically Catholic phenomenon, which nota bene I did not say.

How am I saying that? No. If something, it is intrinsically Jesuitic. The Jesuits already instaured a social Theocracy in the highland forests of Paraguay and Brazil in the XVIIth century. In the last century, it was Jesuit priests who were responsible for the post-Vatican II Liberation Theology, which the Vatican has partially rejected and condemned in its materialist dialectic (marxist influenced).

However, theocracy is not intrinsical to Catholicism as the separation of the temporal and divine powers (State and Church) is the official policy of the Catholic Church: Give Caesar what is Caesar's, and God what is God's.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Menydh

How am I saying that? No. If something, it is intrinsically Jesuitic. The Jesuits already instaured a social Theocracy in the highland forests of Paraguay and Brazil in the XVIIth century. In the last century, it was Jesuit priests who were responsible for the post-Vatican II Liberation Theology, which the Vatican has partially rejected and condemned in its materialist dialectic (marxist influenced).

However, theocracy is not intrinsical to Catholicism as the separation of the temporal and divine powers (State and Church) is the official policy of the Catholic Church: Give Caesar what is Caesar's, and God what is God's.

That was what I implied as well (bold part). But you were speaking of Jesuits in general in your previous post.

The Society of Jesus (Latin: Societas Iesu, S.J. and S.I. or SJ, SI ) is a Roman Catholic Church religious order of clerks regular whose members are called Jesuits, Soldiers of Christ, and Foot soldiers of the Pope, because the founder, Saint Ignatius of Loyola, was a knight before becoming a priest.

Jesuits are the largest male religious order of the Roman Catholic Church, with 19,216 members — 13,491 priests, 3,049 scholastic students, 1,810 brothers and 866 novices — as of January 2007. The Franciscan family of first orders OFMs, Capuchins, and Conventuals has some 30,899 members [20,786 priests]. The average age of the Jesuits in 2007 is 57.3: 63.4 for priests, 29.8 for scholastics, and 65.5 for Brothers[1].

Jesuit priests and brothers are engaged in ministries in 112 nations on six continents. No work, if it has an evangelical perspective, is closed to them, but they are best known in the fields of education (schools, colleges, universities, seminaries, theological faculties), intellectual research, and cultural pursuits. They are also known in missionary work and direct evangelization, social justice and human rights activities, interreligious dialogue, and other 'frontier' ministry.

The Society of Jesus is consecrated under the patronage of Madonna Della Strada, a title of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and it is led by a Superior General, currently Adolfo Nicolás.[2][3] The headquarters of the Society, called General Curia, is in Rome. The history curia of St Ignatius is now part of the Collegio del Gesù attached to the Church of the Gesù, the Jesuit Mother Church.

Society of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Gnist

That was what I implied as well (bold part). But you were speaking of Jesuits in general in your previous post.

Yes, I was speaking of the Jesuits. The Reductions, the social theocratic societies of the Jesuits, were only pursued in The Americas with the approval and support of the King of Spain. The economic system that they followed was a social communitarianism.

In contrast, theocracy in Europe was preached and realized by Protestant figures like Calvin, Zwingli or Cromwell.

The power of the Company within the Church has decayed strongly in the last times. What you have to understand is that The Church is not a big monolithic bloc, but it has a great diversity within.