Adolf Hitler mocks "volkisch" neopaganism in Mein Kampf:

[Petr]

Pagan religions are dead and buried. Get over it.


http://www.roadtopeace.org/Terrorism/Hitler/mkv1c12.htm


MEIN KAMPF, Chapter 12:

...

If anything is unfolkish, it is this tossing around of old Germanic expressions which neither fit into the present period nor represent anything definite, but can easily lead to seeing the significance of a movement in its outward vocabulary. This is a real menace which today can be observed on countless occasions.

Altogether then, and also in the period that followed, I had to warn again and again against those deutschvolkisch wandering scholars whose positive accomplishment is always practically nil, but whose conceit can scarcely be excelled. The young movement had and still has to guard itself against an influx of people whose sole recommendation for the most part lies in their declaration that they have fought for thirty and even forty years for the same idea. Anyone who fights for forty years for a so-called idea without being able to bring about even the slightest success, in fact, without having prevented the victory of the opposite, has, with forty years of activity, provided proof of his own incapacity. The danger above all lies in the fact that such natures do not want to fit into the movement as links, but keep shooting off their mouths about leading circles in which alone, on the strength of their age-old activity, they can see a suitable place for further activity. But woe betide if a young movement is surrendered to the mercies of such people. No more than a business man who in forty years of activity has steadily run a big business into the ground is fitted to be the founder of a new one, is a folkish Methuselah, who in exactly the same time has gummed up and petrified a great idea, fit for the leadership of a new, young movement!

Besides, only a fragment of all these people come into the new movement to serve it, but in most cases, under its protection or through the possibilities it offers, to warm over their old cabbage

They do not want to benefit the idea of the new doctrine, they only expect it to give them a chance to make humanity miserable with their own ideas. For what kind of ideas they often are, it is hard to tell.

The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their bearded heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack. Posterity will have little occasion to glorify their own heroic existence in a new epic.

I came to know these people too well not to feel the profoundest disgust at their miserable play-acting. But they make a ridiculous impression on the broad masses, and the Jew has every reason to spare these folkish comedians, even to prefer them to the true fighters for a coming German state. With all this, these people are boundlessly conceited; despite all the proofs of their complete incompetence, they claim to know everything better and become a real plague for all straightforward and honest fighters to whom heroism seems worth honoring, not only in the past, but who also endeavor to give posterity a similar picture by their own actions.

And often it can be distinguished only with difficulty which of these people act out of inner stupidity or incompetence and which only pretend to for certain reasons. Especially with the so-called religious reformers on an old Germanic basis, I always have the feeling that they were sent by those powers which do not want the resurrection of our people. For their whole activity leads the people away from the common struggle against the common enemy, the Jew, and instead lets them waste their strength on inner religious squabbles as senseless as they are disastrous. For these very reasons the establishment of a strong central power implying the unconditional authority of a Kadership is necessary in the movement. By it alone can such ruinous elements be squelched. And for this reason the greatest enemies of a uniform, strictly led and conducted movement are to be found in the circles of these folkish wandering Jews. In the movement they hate the power that checks their mischief.

Not for nothing did the young movement establish a definite program in which it did not use the word 'folkish.' The concept folkish, in view of its conceptual boundlessness, is no possible basis for a movement and offers no standard for membership in one. The more indefinable this concept is in practice, the more and broader interpretations it permits, the greater becomes the possibility of invoking its authority. The insertion of such an indefinable and variously interpretable concept into the political struggle leads to the destruction of any strict fighting solidarity, since the latter does not permit leaving to the individual the definition of his faith and will.

And it is disgraceful to see all the people who run around today with the word 'folkish' on their caps and how many have their own interpretation of this concept. A Bavarian professor by the name of Bayer,l a famous fighter with spiritual weapons, rich in equally spiritual marches on Berlin, thinks that the concept folkish consists only in a monarchistic attitude. This learned mind, however, has thus far forgotten to give a closer explanation of the identity of our German monarchs of the past with the folkish opinion of today. And I fear that in this the gentleman would not easily succeed. For anything less folkish than most of the Germanic monarchic state formations can hardly be imagined. If this were not so, they would never have disappeared, or their disappearance would offer proof of the unsoundness of the folkish outlook.

And so everyone shoots off his mouth about this concept as he happens to understand it. As a basis for a movement of political struggle, such a multiplicity of opinions is out of the question.

I shall not even speak of the un-worldliness of these folkish Saint Johns of the twentieth century or their ignorance of the popular soul. It is sufficiently illustrated by the ridicule with which they are treated by the Left, which lets them talk and laughs at them.

Anyone in this world who does not succeed in being hated by his adversaries does not seem to me to be worth much as a friend. And thus the friendship of these people for our young movement was not only worthless, but solely and always harmful, and it was also the main reason why, first of all, we chose the name of 'party'--we had grounds for hoping that by this alone a whole swarm of these folkish sleepwalkers would be frightened away from us-and why in the second place we termed ourselves National Socialist German Workers' Party.

The first expression kept away the antiquity enthusiasts, the big-mouths and superficial proverb-makers of the so-called folkish idea,' and the second freed us from the entire host of knights of the 'spiritual sword,' all the poor wretches who wield the 'spiritual weapon' as a protecting shield to hide their actual cowardice.

It goes without saying that in the following period we were attacked hardest especially by these last, not actively, of course, but only with the pen, just as you would expect from such folkish goose-quills. For them our principle, 'Against those who attack us with force we will defend ourselves with force,' had something terrifying about it. They persistently reproached us, not only with brutal worship of the blackjack, but with lack of spirit as such. The fact that in a public meeting a Demosthenes can be brought to silence if only fifty idiots, supported by their voices and their fists, refuse to let him speak, makes no impression whatever on such a quack. His inborn cowardice never lets him get into such danger. For he does not work 'noisily' and 'obtrusively,' but in 'silence.'

Even today r cannot warn our young movement enough against falling into the net of these so-called 'silent workers.' They are not only cowards, but they are also always incompetents and do-nothings. A man who knows a thing, who is aware of a given danger, and sees the possibility of a remedy with his own eyes, has the duty and obligation, by God, not to work 'silently,' but to stand up before the whole public against the evil and for its cure. If he does not do so, he is a disloyal, miserable weakling who fails either from cowardice or from laziness and inability. To be sure, this does not apply at all to most of these people, for they know absolutely nothing, but behave as though they knew God knows what; they can do nothing but try to swindle the whole world with their tricks; they are lazy, but with the 'silent' work they claim to do, they arouse the impression of an enormous and conscientious activity; in short, they are swindlers, political crooks who hate the honest work of others. As soon as one of these folkish moths praises the darkness 1 of silence, we can bet a thousand to one that by it he produces nothing, but steals, steals from the fruits of other people's work.

...


Petr

[Timo]

Nice antogonistic post.

[Johnny Reb]

It's not so much antagonistic as it is food-for-thought for NS neo-pagans.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Johnny Reb

It's not so much antagonistic as it is food-for-thought for NS neo-pagans.

I wasn't talking about what is in Mein Kampf, I was talking about his comment and reason for posting this in the Heathen forum. The Heathen forum is meant to discuss heathenry, not to bash it. I don't go the christian area and bash them, I respect they have their own forum.

Pagan religions are dead and buried. Get over it.

That's not a comment of a person which has good intentions with his post.

[Ederico]

Very interesting excerpt from Mein Kampf, I enjoyed reading it. It would be still relevant in our days, however the reference to Jews is not to my liking, coming from Hitler it would be easily discredited, whether true and factual or false.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Ederico Figallo

Very interesting excerpt from Mein Kampf, I enjoyed reading it. It would be still relevant in our days, however the reference to Jews is not to my liking, coming from Hitler it would be easily discredited, whether true and factual or false.

The thing is he is not even talking of most of what today's heathens practice, believe in or their attitude. First, enemies of Heathenry, like our freind Petr here, like to bulk all heathens (i.e., "Neo-Pagans") into on group so it is easier to attack us. This is like me labeling all christians as if they all believe the same, which in reality there are countless types of christians all with different beliefs, interpretations and customs. The christian demoninations even have a large history of infighting. Whereas if you ask any Heathen (or Pagan) of any faith or persuation what they think of another Heathen who has different beliefs or customs (etc), he would say they have a right to their beliefs, and perhaps even say his repect for the other heathens faith(fulness). I am tired of seeing Heathens bash Christians, and I am like-wise tired of Christians bashing Heathens. I try not to mention the history of Christianity and it's non-tolerance to Europeans of their blood who had different beliefs or were simply accused of having different beliefs. I would rather us all respect that the other believes in different dieties and different ideas, but we both have faith in something, and we can leave it at that. As I was saying, there are a great many types of Heathen (Pagan) religions, each with their own essence and beliefs. We are not a homogenous group. I look at my beliefs to be extreamly individualistic, they are mine, and nobody else's. I have an independent, individual mind and as such my beliefs, customs and ideas are for the most part unique to myself. I believe that each individual must find their own spiritual path (harmony). If that is Catholism for someone, then I totally respect it. I except that person, however, to reciprocate the respect.

On Hitler's comments in Mein Kampf. I don't remember reading this. I will have to look through my german copy to see if the translation is accurate, but even if it is, I don't see how it effects any heathen here. That is one man's opinion, in one time of his life, and to be taken in context of when it was written, and why. One must not forget that the German National Socialists supported a revival of old folkish heathen customs and beliefs. They arranged fests and parades which acknowledge the germanic dieties such as Wotan, albeit in a historical context. Don't forget that Hitler, himself, was a huge fan of Wagner, and his plays. Wagner was inspired by North-Germanic mythology and this can be seen in his plays. I don't see any quotes in this thread denouncing Wagner as a "great coward."

Originally Posted by Petr

The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their bearded heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack. Posterity will have little occasion to glorify their own heroic existence in a new epic.

This largely doesn't fit many Heathens, like myself, of today's world. We actively stand up agianst such poisoning things like Communism. Yet, like I said before, there are still many types of Heathenism (Paganism). Yet let us also not forget (while I'm on the subject), that much of the Waffen-Schutzstaffel Divisions and Units were named and encouraged a return to pro-germanic/pan-germanic type heathenism. This can be seen in the icons for the units (use of runes and other ancient symbols), the names (Wiking, Germania, Nibelungen [formed late and fought in Bavaria]*, etc.) Many recruiting posters in Germanic countries showed a return to the old times (Vikings/Medieval) to arose fervor within people to join the Waffen-SS. I not passing judgement here for or agianst these things. I am just showing that the thread post, i.e., the comments made, are not to be taken as "Hitler agianst Neo-Paganism," as the title describes and as the thread-creator intended. Hitler was a Catholic, that is clear, but I think he was more accepting of the indigenous beliefs of Germans (or maybe even all Europeans) than some people would want us to believe.

In anycase, I am still of the opinion, that this thread had malicious intent and doesn't belong in this forum at all. Or shall I start quoting books and people that bash Christianity and throw them in the Christian Forum? You see. It can go both ways. Hitler's comments, if they are indeed his opinion, won't change anyones belief system.

Originally Posted by Petr

Pagan religions are dead and buried. Get over it.

No, Petr, Heathen religions aren't dead or buried. Heathenism is alive an well, you are the one that needs to get over it! Accept that we are part of the European community or pretend we don't exist, either way, you need to get over this immature christianity vs. paganism bit.



(* = source: Klaus Schneider - Spuren der "Nibelungen" 1945)

~~~~~~
edit: Thank you to which Moderator/Administrator moved this thread to it's proper place.

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Ederico Figallo

Very interesting excerpt from Mein Kampf, I enjoyed reading it. It would be still relevant in our days, however the reference to Jews is not to my liking, coming from Hitler it would be easily discredited, whether true and factual or false.

Ederico, the quote about Jews expresses the truth of the situation, as does the rest of the passage. AH was more often right than wrong about many things. The truth can never be discredited except in the superficial sense of being howled down.

[Eriugena]

Hi, its me again.

Originally Posted by Timo

The thing is he is not even talking of most of what today's heathens practice, believe in or their attitude. First, enemies of Heathenry, like our freind Petr here, like to bulk all heathens (i.e., "Neo-Pagans") into on group so it is easier to attack us.

Possibly, but Hitler is describing here the New Agers of his day who attached themselves to the movement. His description fits pretty well I think even now.

I am tired of seeing Heathens bash Christians, and I am like-wise tired of Christians bashing Heathens. I try not to mention the history of Christianity and it's non-tolerance to Europeans of their blood who had different beliefs or were simply accused of having different beliefs. I would rather us all respect that the other believes in different dieties and different ideas, but we both have faith in something, and we can leave it at that.

I agree with you, but Hitler's point was about political effectiveness.

As I was saying, there are a great many types of Heathen (Pagan) religions, each with their own essence and beliefs. We are not a homogenous group. I look at my beliefs to be extreamly individualistic, they are mine, and nobody else's.

Yo have made part of Hitler's point. That's part of the problem, the privacy of such beliefs. If they are private in this way, then how can they be effective for developing an effective movement?

I have an independent, individual mind and as such my beliefs, customs and ideas are for the most part unique to myself. I believe that each individual must find their own spiritual path (harmony). If that is Catholism for someone, then I totally respect it. I except that person, however, to reciprocate the respect.

Sure, but the point is about collective movements etc.

On Hitler's comments in Mein Kampf. I don't remember reading this. I will have to look through my german copy to see if the translation is accurate, but even if it is, I don't see how it effects any heathen here. That is one man's opinion, in one time of his life, and to be taken in context of when it was written, and why.

They are the views of a man who was a political genius and who became the beloved leader of a great nation, they do have a call on our attention.

One must not forget that the German National Socialists supported a revival of old folkish heathen customs and beliefs. They arranged fests and parades which acknowledge the germanic dieties such as Wotan, albeit in a historical context.

That was Himmler's hobby, Hitler was rather sceptical about all that.

Don't forget that Hitler, himself, was a huge fan of Wagner, and his plays.

So am I and so are a lot of people who dont subscribe to reviving Teutonic legends as a living religion, Wagner certainly did'nt.

Wagner was inspired by North-Germanic mythology and this can be seen in his plays.

Joyce - a great Wagnerian - was inspired by the Odyssey - but he didn't become a born-again Olympian. Wagner reconciled himself with Christianity in later life - Parsifal.

This largely doesn't fit many Heathens, like myself, of today's world. We actively stand up agianst such poisoning things like Communism. Yet, like I said before, there are still many types of Heathenism (Paganism). Yet let us also not forget (while I'm on the subject), that much of the Waffen-Schutzstaffel Divisions and Units were named and encouraged a return to pro-germanic/pan-germanic type heathenism.

Yes and we used Celtic hero myths and images in the struggle against the British but his did notentail a revival of Celtic religion.

This can be seen in the icons for the units (use of runes and other ancient symbols), the names (Wiking, Germania, Nibelungen [formed late and fought in Bavaria]*, etc.) Many recruiting posters in Germanic countries showed a return to the old times (Vikings/Medieval) to arose fervor within people to join the Waffen-SS.

But all of this is to remind people of who they are, their noble origins, not a call to revive the gods of antiquity.

I not passing judgement here for or agianst these things. I am just showing that the thread post, i.e., the comments made, are not to be taken as "Hitler agianst Neo-Paganism," as the title describes and as the thread-creator intended. Hitler was a Catholic, that is clear, but I think he was more accepting of the indigenous beliefs of Germans (or maybe even all Europeans) than some people would want us to believe.

But, alas, the quote makes very clear the Fuhrer's views about the topic.

In anycase, I am still of the opinion, that this thread had malicious intent and doesn't belong in this forum at all.

You have a point there, however if you are sure of your ground you should be able to defend neo-paganism rather than crying foul.

[Gil]

Well, first of all I agree with every point that Reinhold stated, and secondly I think A.Hitler was referring more to a political sense than a religious sense. Also, like Reinhold said, the "germanic revival" that Hitler sponsored was a cultural/historical renaissance,not religious. Though there are lot's of people talking about Himmler and his fascination with the occult and the "germanic paganism" I don't see any hard evidence of a global (supported by the party) turn towards paganism in spite of Christianity.
Anyway, this is the Pagan section of Stirpes so people who are presenting arguments, even if against paganism, should present them in a civil manner.

Cheers

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Reinhold Elstner

You have a point there, however if you are sure of your ground you should be able to defend neo-paganism rather than crying foul.

I didn't call for the post to be deleted or anything. I can clearly debate this topic in the correct forum. Not in the forum that he originially posted it in, which is a forum specifically for pagans/heathens. This can be debated openly, but not in a forum clearly defined as a pagan forum, when this post is clearly meant as an antogonistic post. It is in it's correct spot now, which is the overall religion forum.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Reinhold Elstner

Possibly, but Hitler is describing here the New Agers of his day who attached themselves to the movement.

I will admit that I know very little about a Neo-Pagan movement of Hitler's time, and if his points are valid or not. I merely know about the pagans and heathens which of this era, and know that there is not one movement. There are a many movements and individual believers - to speak as though they are one entity is dishonest.

His description fits pretty well I think even now.

Which group, though? There is not just one?

I agree with you, but Hitler's point was about political effectiveness.

Politics and religious beliefs are two seperate matters.

Yo have made part of Hitler's point. That's part of the problem, the privacy of such beliefs. If they are private in this way, then how can they be effective for developing an effective movement?

Who says I want to start a movement? I don't care what other people believe in. My religious beliefs are my own, my purpose would never be to start a movement of any kind.

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Timo

I will admit that I know very little about a Neo-Pagan movement of Hitler's time, and if his points are valid or not. I merely know about the pagans and heathens which of this era, and know that there is not one movement. There are a many movements and individual believers - to speak as though they are one entity is dishonest.

No one said they were one anymore than the Churches are one in that sense. However all the Churches have something in common in a way that the neo-pagan movement has somethjing in common - despite the differences as you point out.

Politics and religious beliefs are two seperate matters.

They are, but the neo-pagans of Hitler's time talked in terms of national revival and mixed up their fantasy life with political themes. Hitler corrcetly saw this as lethal for the movement and wanted nothing to do with those people. Similarly, anyone allying themselves with certain neo-pagan crusties in some political cause, can kiss goodbye to credibility. The wider issue is political romanticism which goes beyond just neo-pagans or Newagers who want to mix it up with the political and is not a problem confined to Hitler's time.

[Timo]

I will continue to reply, even though I don't think we are disagreeing here.

Originally Posted by Reinhold Elstner

No one said they were one anymore than the Churches are one in that sense. However all the Churches have something in common in a way that the neo-pagan movement has somethjing in common - despite the differences as you point out.

There are great differences in types of christians, it is true, just like pagans (call them neo-pagans if you will). Though paganism (I prefer Heathenism) is at isn't natural an unorganized religion/belief system. It's very essence is to seek spirituality within one's self through one's individuality rather than the conformity within a group. I think the "movements" of "Neo-Paganism" that are becoming for-front and organized are doing it for their own benifit, and therefore untrue to there own teachings. Such can be seen in the Evangelical faith, the rise of "Healing Pastors" in America on TV, that is so fake. It is a money maker, pure and simple. Neo-Movements like "Wicka" have tapped into liberal post-hippie modern cultures in order to gain members and spread themselves. I will state agian that I am firmly agianst heathen "movements". It is agianst my beliefs to have movements, when I think spirituality should be and only can be sought through individual examination of one's self, not by belonging to an organization. Wicka, for instance, takes young teens that are into the "Goth" scene and spreads their influence throughout that newage cultural venue - as can be seen in several "teen-movies" where girls practice witch-craft (the name of one I was thinking of in particular excapes me). These "New-Age" movements should not be confused with old-age beliefs that I and others hold on a personal basis. I don't believe in magic or the wickan type theology, but I do consider myself a heathen (aka pagan), and being called a "Neo-Pagan" lumps me in with these groups that I utterly dispise. I'd rather group myself with catholics rather than these types. (not a degrading remark on catholics, dont misunderstand)

They are, but the neo-pagans of Hitler's time talked in terms of national revival and mixed up their fantasy life with political themes. Hitler corrcetly saw this as lethal for the movement and wanted nothing to do with those people. Similarly, anyone allying themselves with certain neo-pagan crusties in some political cause, can kiss goodbye to credibility. The wider issue is political romanticism which goes beyond just neo-pagans or Newagers who want to mix it up with the political and is not a problem confined to Hitler's time.

I understand, though I think even the "neo-pagans" of Hitlers times were as fragmented in beliefs as it is now, or I can be wrong. I can see how Hitler would want nothing to do with those people, so would I. Yes, I agree, any alliance with neo-pagans in politics is a doomed one, just as now most see religion of any type as a "hot-button" topic for politicians, that is somewhat hard to discuss - for fear of alienating any potential voters. I can agree with you last sentence also, but I must reiterate that many Heathens are not "Neo-Pagans" or "New-Agers", we infact loath these people and are almost ideologically opposite on every stance. They are mostly hippie tutti frutti types, if you ask me. Heathens of my type are quiet individuals who practice personal forms of the old beliefs (whatever ethnic gods or rituals they maybe) and wish not to be associated with such people as the above mentioned. That is why I seriously object to be called "Neo-Pagan" and lumped in with a groups that I loath... it is like me lumping Roman Catholics in with Mormans or American Baptists, if you get my point.

In anycase, I didn't like how this thread started to begin with. It is an attempt to discredit or attack heathens (pagans) by lumping them in a group and quoting a notible figure such as Hitler. It is dishonest, and antagonistic. Though I have read other stuff on other boards from this Petr fellow, so I am not surprised.

[Petr]

- "It is dishonest, and antagonistic. Though I have read other stuff on other boards from this Petr fellow, so I am not surprised."


I am often antagonistic, true, but dishonest? Prove it.


Petr

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Petr

- "It is dishonest, and antagonistic. Though I have read other stuff on other boards from this Petr fellow, so I am not surprised."


I am often antagonistic, true, but dishonest? Prove it.


Petr

I think you just did.