Are you religious ?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

I didnt mean a literal enemy, just hostile cultures in general.

I still fail to see how Christianity is hostile.

The debate is pretty much about what really is our culture. You can argue that Christianity is justified because we've have it for so long, you can argue it isnt, and you can argue that European belief systems are dead (which could never be entirely true since there are sincere believers, and it would be unfair to undermine them - but we're talking on a societal level). That is one of the core reasons for difference in opinion.

Exactly. As you said, we're talking about our culture today, and not about the culture of our ancestors. As I've said before, we're not our ancestors. We're new, different people.

Its arguable that many Europeans have some level of Middle Eastern descent, such as Alani influence, Cimmerian and Scythian ancestry, and Iranic descent of some Balkans. But lets not mix arbitrary and entirely voluntary choices of (and thereby self-imposed, contrary to genetics and the anthropology of Europe, which anyway, is what it is and that is European) religion with anthropology, genetics and other subjects.

Oh, but these two events are so much alike, wouldn't you say? When Christianity first came to Europe it absorbed many pagan beliefs and incorporated them into itself, as well as big part of European philosophy(as Plethon mentioned earlier), thus becoming a hybrid between the original religion and numerous European components. In the same way did the "Middle Easterners" incorporate themselves into European ethnic substrata, thereby changing it forever. And that is my humble opinion. We're not the same people as our ancestors were 2000 years ago. I believe that there's no point in coming back to "our roots", because people who represented that roots have died long time ago. And their ways have died with them.

I have just one question for you.. Did the pagan beliefs in Europe survive because people sincerely(thus secretly) believed in it for centuries, or were they simply revived by a sudden rejection of Christianity, as a "Semitic" and "non-European" religion? I'm asking that because I've met a fair number of people, mainly from the Scandinavian countries, who were born as Christians but have eventually begin to reject it, saying that it's not theirs and that they'll rather embrace the "original" European beliefs.

Many people have died in not-so-peaceful Christian and Islamic conflicts, or killed by agendas these religions account for. There are many examples, but the point is that it is subjective how "aggressive" and "destructive" Islam and Christianity indeed are, and same with Nazism.

As I have said before, Christianity and Islam are both benevolent religions in their basis, while Nazism is a destructive ideology. When speaking about religions and wars, be advised that it is not the religion that starts a war, but destructive and malevolent people. Which is exactly the opposite with ideologies like Nazism.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Monolith

I still fail to see how Christianity is hostile.
Exactly. As you said, we're talking about our culture today, and not about the culture of our ancestors. As I've said before, we're not our ancestors. We're new, different people.

And that is both positive in negative. Our culture today is more anti-nationalistic than ever - nationalism used to be presumed rather than advocated, and we've gone from there to the point where advocating it is a death sin in many peoples eyes.

You still cant reject paganism and European religion just as the "culture of our ancestors" and "not us". Its the ethnocultural legacy of any proud European.

I believe that there's no point in coming back to "our roots", because people who represented that roots have died long time ago. And their ways have died with them.

I dont know exactly what you are referring to, but with Scandinavian paganism thats not true.

I have just one question for you.. Did the pagan beliefs in Europe survive because people sincerely(thus secretly) believed in it for centuries, or were they simply revived by a sudden rejection of Christianity, as a "Semitic" and "non-European" religion? I'm asking that because I've met a fair number of people, mainly from the Scandinavian countries, who were born as Christians but have eventually begin to reject it, saying that it's not theirs and that they'll rather embrace the "original" European beliefs.

No, many Europeans were never Christian to begin with. Most youth are raised in Christian societies without believing (as myself) and gradually find out about things such as paganism, which they identify with because it is relevant to their own culture.

As I have said before, Christianity and Islam are both benevolent religions in their basis, while Nazism is a destructive ideology. When speaking about religions and wars, be advised that it is not the religion that starts a war, but destructive and malevolent people. Which is exactly the opposite with ideologies like Nazism.

I disagree. It is exactly the same with Nazism. An ideology itself doesnt start a war. In that case, I could invent a hostile ideology now and start a war. Incorrect. Nazism isnt by any standard destructive, that is your opinion. National Socialism is indoctrinated by education systems and the media to be destructive ideologies (by any standard) but anyone with the guts to admit it knows otherwise. I'm not a nazi, but I'm not going to call it universally destructive either, that is simply not part of its base agenda. The Third Reich might have been destructive, but that doesnt make the ideology (which is just the fundamental basis, not the essence or nature of all affairs or crimes committed by its proponents) universally destructive.

Oh, but these two events are so much alike, wouldn't you say?

Since both Celts and Germanic peoples may themselves be the descendants of Cimmerians and certain other Iranic tribes, no it is not alike.

The immigration and assimilation of other Iranic tribes, is also, not the same, because it wasnt self-imposed, which Christianity is.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Since both Celts and Germanic peoples may themselves be the descendants of Cimmerians and certain other Iranic tribes, no it is not alike.

No way. They are our ennemies :

"Là, où tous nos ancêtres
De géants guerriers celtes
Après de grandes batailles
Se sont imposés en maîtres
C'est l'heure maintenant de défendre notre terre
Contre une armée de Simeriens prête à croiser le fer"

Yo.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

No way. They are our ennemies :

"Là, où tous nos ancêtres
De géants guerriers celtes
Après de grandes batailles
Se sont imposés en maîtres
C'est l'heure maintenant de défendre notre terre
Contre une armée de Simeriens prête à croiser le fer"

Yo.

What the hell? Celtic hip hop?

Anyway, I dont hope you were serious.
Does "simeriens" even mean Cimmerian?

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

What the hell? Celtic hip hop?

Yep. There were famous in France during the late 90's :

+ YouTube Video

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Anyway, I dont hope you were serious.
Does "simeriens" even mean Cimmerian?

No, of course, I was joking : I don't think that the "Simeriens" even exist, in fact.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

And that is both positive in negative. Our culture today is more anti-nationalistic than ever - nationalism used to be presumed rather than advocated, and we've gone from there to the point where advocating it is a death sin in many peoples eyes.

This is not our culture. It is foreign.

You still cant reject paganism and European religion just as the "culture of our ancestors" and "not us".

If you want to be pagan, knock yourself out. I have no objections because it's your personal choice, after all.

Its the ethnocultural legacy of any proud European.

As is the Christianity.

No, many Europeans were never Christian to begin with. Most youth are raised in Christian societies without believing (as myself) and gradually find out about things such as paganism, which they identify with because it is relevant to their own culture.

Well, if that makes them happy..

I disagree. It is exactly the same with Nazism. An ideology itself doesnt start a war. In that case, I could invent a hostile ideology now and start a war. Incorrect. Nazism isnt by any standard destructive, that is your opinion. National Socialism is indoctrinated by education systems and the media to be destructive ideologies (by any standard) but anyone with the guts to admit it knows otherwise. I'm not a nazi, but I'm not going to call it universally destructive either, that is simply not part of its base agenda. The Third Reich might have been destructive, but that doesnt make the ideology (which is just the fundamental basis, not the essence or nature of all affairs or crimes committed by its proponents) universally destructive.

I was not talking about National Socialist program, but about their ideology as a whole. And that ideology included aryan supremacism, anti-Semitism and anti-Slavism, which later served as a basis for their irredentism. I don't know if you were either not aware of that, or you intentionally disregarded all the facts. I find it rather amusing that you keep trying to compare(and thus equalize) Nazism and Christianity, but at the same time I find it to be quite offensive.

Since both Celts and Germanic peoples may themselves be the descendants of Cimmerians and certain other Iranic tribes, no it is not alike.

Celtics and Germanics descended from Iranic tribes? Maybe Germans, but to some far lesser extent than you implied.

The immigration and assimilation of other Iranic tribes, is also, not the same, because it wasnt self-imposed, which Christianity is.

Right... Read my post please.. I said "much alike", and not "the same". You can find as many distinctions you want, but basically both events are much alike.

[Salford]

Yes, I'm religious, I suppose. I should get to Mass more (outside of the Sunday obligation), though, but it's difficult.