Are you religious ?

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by bombadillo

Europe, Europeans, and European culture certainly existed before Christianity.

Hm, not sure about that, since European culture is an intreplay between Greek thought, Roman law AND Christianity.

Originally Posted by bombadillo

And today's European Christianity is a strange hybrid creation -- very different from the primitive faith that came out of Palestine. Christian theology is inconceivable without the impact of neo-Platonism in the early centuries.

Absolutely correct. Christianity contained elements of Greek thought, from the very beginning (the Gospel of John).

Originally Posted by bombadillo

But still there remains a kernel of non-European dogma (superstition?) at the heart of the religion -- and this is responsible for much of the mischief we see in the American evangelical movement. I would argue that this kernel is profoundly non-European. Nietzsche wrote about this more insightfully than I can manage here.

American evangleicalism is beyond contempt, it is not even Christianity in any meaningful sense...some of their leaders and preachers even started preaching that Jews are still "chosen people", something that contradicts the basic tenets of Christianity.

Originally Posted by bombadillo

Material like the Old Testament does not relate to us at all but is the basis of an expansionist semitic ideology with its roots in a semitic tribalism.

I must say, first time I took the Old Testament into my hands and started reading it, it seemed to me as a hideous book, from many aspects. However, its stories are to be understood allegorically, as they have always been throughout history in the Christian theology.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by bombadillo

Europe, Europeans, and European culture certainly existed before Christianity. And today's European Christianity is a strange hybrid creation -- very different from the primitive faith that came out of Palestine. Christian theology is inconceivable without the impact of neo-Platonism in the early centuries. And later thinkers (e.g., Aquinas and other medieval theologians) further changed it with the attempt to reconcile it with Aristotelian ideas. But still there remains a kernel of non-European dogma (superstition?) at the heart of the religion -- and this is responsible for much of the mischief we see in the American evangelical movement. I would argue that this kernel is profoundly non-European. Nietzsche wrote about this more insightfully than I can manage here.

I would argue that the original traditions of Europe -- the various pagan traditions, druidism, the Norse legends, and so on -- tied as they are to the land and history of our people -- reflect more authentic roots than this alien import. Material like the Old Testament does not relate to us at all but is the basis of an expansionist semitic ideology with its roots in a semitic tribalism.

Well said. I agree!

Originally Posted by Lagun

To be a believer is to be week-minded? Are you anti-theist?

Do you believe that your ancesters, or the great mayority of European, heros, cientists, philosophers, and citizents in general of Europe are and were week-minded people? Which sort of supernatural person are you then?

Do you realy believe that Christiandom is not the base of the whole value system/ ethic code, we have in Europe?

Am I an anti-theist? I oppose theism, so logically yes - but that doesnt mean I have the same sentiments as other antitheists or antitheist ideologues.

I believe that there is a good reason many Europeans are now rejecting Christianity. Christianity may have been a part of the evolution of our culture, but rejecting it is essential for continuing that growth and evolution.

We have to choose reason over faith. Since we cannot dictate that, I have proposed neopaganism be the substitute, for true European nationalists, since we can thus promote cultures and religions that have roots only in Europe - not in Israel or Arabia.

I dont believe all my ancestors or all European ancestors were weak-minded people. Far from all the most acknowledged Western philosophers subscribed to religions or faith, and those that did lived in a time where not doing so was often not considered an option, and where it was at least very unprevalent not doing so. Others, lived in times where only true European paganism was prevalent, which I have less against. Just as intergalactic space travel is not considered an option right now - so I dont blame them for it.

However, today, with so much information available to any ordinary person, through the internet and through libraries and so on, I would blame the individual, and no longer society, for rejecting reasoning.

Originally Posted by Plethon

Correct.

Although I totally disagree with you in everything you just said, I am not going to enter any polemic on that (it is your opinion or view, after all), but could you, please, substantiate the claim that Christianity favours Zionism?

PS. There are far deeper and intellectually more powerful atheist treatises than this worthless propagandistic rant written by Dawkins. For example, Nietzsche or Heidegger, who are worth reading.

I am aware of that, and I have read a lot of atheist literature, also far deeper than Dawkins. However, this 'propagandistic rant' can be read by almost anyone, which is why I often suggest it. It doesnt take heavy intellectual capacity to understand the arguments in it, and that usually suits your average religious person I am trying to convert. (joke - dont take that one seriously, just joking around - claiming a person is stupid is not an argument in a sincere discussion).

Christianity favors Zionism. That is a must. Christianity is a Semitic religion, with roots in Jewish mythology and geographically in Israel. The bible is part Judaistic. Jesus was a Judaist, and most likely a Jew.

All these things ultimately lead up to a Christian country to support Israel and the Zionist cause. Thats why Israel even exists today, the Jewish separatist state, because there was mandate for it from the Christian countries - for taking over large parts of Palestine. Taking over a country, based on the biblical assertion that Israel belongs to the sons of Israel or Jews - clearly rooted in Christianity. Not often, has the West decided to invade and occupy a country, that wasnt hostile. However, with the Zionist cause for the Jewish separatist state, exactly that was decided.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

I've been reading some books (Krebs, Faye) whose authors also despise christianism as a non-european religion, and favour pagan spirituality instead. I have some problems with this approach.

Firstly, you relate zionist influence in europe to christianism. I cannot agree, and I tend to think that the opposite is true --the progressive weakening of christian faith in europe paved the way to alien powers to control us. Didn't the Catholic Kings kicked out the jews from Spain in 1492? Countless examples of catholic opposition to jewry can be found. However, jewry rise to power occurs simultaneusly to the decline of Christian Faith in Europe.

Secondly, wasn't Charle Magne european? Don Pelayo? The Catholic Kings of Spain? Thomas Aquinas? Dante? Most of our greatest leaders, warriors, artists and thinkers were christians. Do you think they were "misleaded" by a "semitic faith"?

And one last question: how do you define Europe if you do not take into consideration Christianity? Did Europe exist before Christianity? Can we bypass more than 1500 years of our history?

I think that people today who search for the divine are usually very strong-minded. You have to be very strong and dedicated to be able to overcome all the atheistic/materialistic propaganda that's inflicted on us every day and search for something higher than yourself.

As I said - condemning Christianity in present-day society is not the same as condemning every manifestation of Christianity, from thousands of years ago in Europe. Christianity was part of our evolution. Would be here today if we hadnt had Christianity? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe our own paganism would have done the same for us as Christianity, all that is speculative. We can only conclude that Christianity after all has influenced the development of our ideals and society, and that is both positive and negative. A big part of it is positive, and in order to keep growing culturally, we have to move on from Christianity, like we've moved on from living in caves to houses.

That doesnt mean the primitive step in our cultural evolution was unnecessary or replaceable - maybe it was, maybe not, but nevertheless it has gotten us where we are today, and from there we should move on. Anything thats been good for a society doesnt necessarily keep being good for a society forever - and something thats good for a society can be negative, and thus make people realize that its wrong, thus having a positive effect. And that statement is powerful and true.

I have to agree though, that European culture also influenced our form of Christianity, but it still was rooted in Semitic elements, and that is unacceptable today.

[Martín Zalacaín]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Its a question of perception I guess, It was British Empiricism that brought criticism on religion by declaring only the independently thinking man has no need for religious motives to act morally, and its the non independently thinking that necessarily needs religion to act so called ethically.

Since I'm not religious, I'd be willing to believe what you say --and I even can accept it in the individual level. But when we talk about big numbers, societies, civilizations, I think religion is an essential factor. As I said, I reached that conclussion reading History, it's not based in any religious prejudice.

Why is the Islamic civilization a menace to us? Because they are strongly religious, and that makes them powerful as a group. If they weren't religious, they wouldn't be more than one of the many third world cultures in this planet, as menacing to us as australian aboriginals.

Applying this to our case, I believe that much of our greatness as a civilization is based in our common religion: Christianism. Without Christianism we would have been turkified hundreds of years ago.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Plethon

PS. There are far deeper and intellectually more powerful atheist treatises than this worthless propagandistic rant written by Dawkins. For example, Nietzsche or Heidegger, who are worth reading

The book wasn’t philosophical intentioned, and not an emotional rant, you just misinterpreted what you think to believe to be the message and goal of that book. That, you only managed to do so by your subjective internal motives, not by a normal logic manner of having knowledge on the content of the book and on that building your argumentation. Giving systematically negative comments on something you don’t know the content of, is truly emotional motivated and not by reason.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

Since I'm not religious, I'd be willing to believe what you say --and I even can accept it in the individual level. But when we talk about big numbers, societies, civilizations, I think religion is an essential factor. As I said, I reached that conclussion reading History, it's not based in any religious prejudice.

Why is the Islamic civilization a menace to us? Because they are strongly religious, and that makes them powerful as a group. If they weren't religious, they wouldn't be more than one of the many third world cultures in this planet, as menacing to us as australian aboriginals.

Applying this to our case, I believe that much of our greatness as a civilization is based in our common religion: Christianism. Without Christianism we would have been turkified hundreds of years ago.

I don't necessarily subject to the message of the Empiricists, I just showed an other interpretation on morality and the supernatural, then the necessary correlation between the both.

That Christianity did good is without question, but reflecting the possibility of the inadequacy of correctness religion claims, the wrongdoings would be morally absurd.

[Martín Zalacaín]

Originally Posted by Degenuicide

I believe that there is a good reason many Europeans are now rejecting Christianity.

Would you please elaborate on that? What reason?

Christianity may have been a part of the evolution of our culture, but rejecting it is essential for continuing that growth and evolution.

I find it philosophically unacceptable that a civilization must reject more that 1500 years of its own History in order to evolve.

We have to choose reason over faith.

Why? What advantages has reason over faith? I consider civilizations based on faith as well-organized and powerful, they usually fight as one. However, our societies based on reason just breed selfish cowards, unable to fight for anything but their own good.

Since we cannot dictate that, I have proposed neopaganism be the substitute, for true European nationalists, since we can thus promote cultures and religions that have roots only in Europe - not in Israel or Arabia.

I think that if paganism is dead nowadays, it's for a good reason. You cannot seriously think that you can artificially replace christianity with paganism.

I dont believe all my ancestors or all European ancestors were weak-minded people. Far from all the most acknowledged Western philosophers subscribed to religions or faith, and those that did lived in a time where not doing so was often not considered an option, and where it was at least very unprevalent not doing so. Others, lived in times where only true European paganism was prevalent, which I have less against. Just as intergalactic space travel is not considered an option right now - so I dont blame them for it.

However, today, with so much information available to any ordinary person, through the internet and through libraries and so on, I would blame the individual, and no longer society, for rejecting reasoning.

From my point of view, our ancestors were still able to relate to a supramundane reality. We are not, and we disguise our inability as progress, we despise our ancestors because they were fooled, they based their lives on lies. We know better than them.

Christianity favors Zionism. That is a must. Christianity is a Semitic religion, with roots in Jewish mythology and geographically in Israel. The bible is part Judaistic. Jesus was a Judaist, and most likely a Jew.
All these things ultimately lead up to a Christian country to support Israel and the Zionist cause. Thats why Israel even exists today, the Jewish separatist state, because there was mandate for it from the Christian countries - for taking over large parts of Palestine. Taking over a country, based on the biblical assertion that Israel belongs to the sons of Israel or Jews - clearly rooted in Christianity. Not often, has the West decided to invade and occupy a country, that wasnt hostile. However, with the Zionist cause for the Jewish separatist state, exactly that was decided.

Can you prove that? Some quotation from the Gospels, maybe? It would be difficult to find one, since Jesus spends the whole Gospels criticizing jews, their hypocritical ways, to the point that the only act of violence of Jesus in the Gospels is against those jewish merchants that were selling their goods in the temple. I find Jesus to be quite anti-jewish. Most true catholics are openly anti-semitic (as in anti-jewish), and jews have traditionally been considered deicidal in catholic coutries, and thus hated. I find nothing pro-zionistic in traditional cristianism.

As I said - condemning Christianity in present-day society is not the same as condemning every manifestation of Christianity, from thousands of years ago in Europe. Christianity was part of our evolution. Would be here today if we hadnt had Christianity? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe our own paganism would have done the same for us as Christianity, all that is speculative. We can only conclude that Christianity after all has influenced the development of our ideals and society, and that is both positive and negative. A big part of it is positive, and in order to keep growing culturally, we have to move on from Christianity, like we've moved on from living in caves to houses.

That doesnt mean the primitive step in our cultural evolution was unnecessary or replaceable - maybe it was, maybe not, but nevertheless it has gotten us where we are today, and from there we should move on. Anything thats been good for a society doesnt necessarily keep being good for a society forever - and something thats good for a society can be negative, and thus make people realize that its wrong, thus having a positive effect. And that statement is powerful and true.

I have to agree though, that European culture also influenced our form of Christianity, but it still was rooted in Semitic elements, and that is unacceptable today.

Two last things:

1- Do you know that the greek alphabet is based on the phoenician one which is, well..., semitic? Shall we reject this spurious alphabet, and all the poetry, philosophy and history that has been built upon it?

2- What are, in your opinion, the greatest achievements of atheistic civilization? I would suggest Free market, Jackson Pollock and homosexual marriage

[bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Plethon

Hm, not sure about that, since European culture is an intreplay between Greek thought, Roman law AND Christianity.

Well, yes, though it's not clear how much of this is specifically related to Christ himself (or very early Christianity) since as you point out a bit later, Greek thought came in almost from the start and, equally importantly, other allegorical, mystical, and superstitious elements (from Asia Minor and Europe) also came in right from inception. The idea of the Trinity is one such conception; there are many others.

I must say, first time I took the Old Testament into my hands and started reading it, it seemed to me as a hideous book, from many aspects. However, its stories are to be understood allegorically, as they have always been throughout history in the Christian theology.

One is forced to ascribe an allegorical interpretation to these stories to lend them a universalist aspect; they were originally very literal stories, histories, and superstitions. Even the god described seems to be a vengeful, local deity, caught up with the interests of a certain group, and only much later becoming an abstract divinity. And how can one give an allegorical interpretation to "A begat B, who begat C, who begat D, who begat E" and so on?

It's interesting to speculate on how Europe would have evolved without this impact. My (admittedly biased) opinion is it would have done better.

One important distinction I want to make is between Christianity and Christendon. Christendom was a bureaucratic affair organised by a bureaucratic church and with only lip service paid to Christ and Christianity. The Church was effectively a bureaucratic custodian to Europe culture while Europe went through its dark period. Another poster has stated that without "Christianism" we'd have been turkified a long time ago. It's difficult to agree with this. What really kept the Turks and Mongols and Moors at bay was an evolving European identity based ultimately on genetics. Christendom was a facade for this deeper reality. Say, for example, a Turk converted to Christianity five centuries ago: he would still not become part of Christendom as the genetic basis wouldn't be there. This is just another way for me to reiterate that I think our folk cultures, traditions, legends, and beliefs are a more authentic mirror of our various European identities -- based on the historical interaction between our genes and and our European homelands -- than anything from abroad. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

Would you please elaborate on that? What reason?

All I said after it.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

I find it philosophically unacceptable that a civilization must reject more that 1500 years of its own History in order to evolve.

Then you probably also find it philosophically hard to accept that its taken 4 billion years for our planet to develop human life, and subsequently tens of thousands of years for civilizations to emerge. But thats how this world works. I also, didnt claim that absolutely nothing good came out of it.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

Why? What advantages has reason over faith? I consider civilizations based on faith as well-organized and powerful, they usually fight as one. However, our societies based on reason just breed selfish cowards, unable to fight for anything but their own good.

I was referring to an ultimate advantage; like in reason over faith, or faith over reason. Faith can be good for a society as long as you dont reject reason (and that has happened numerous times; just see intelligent design over evolution).

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

I think that if paganism is dead nowadays, it's for a good reason. You cannot seriously think that you can artificially replace christianity with paganism.

Paganism is near extinct, a pure piece of European culture. So is European culture and European people if we dont do all we can to preserve it. Thats why we need to revive European paganism; and thats why we need neopaganism.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

From my point of view, our ancestors were still able to relate to a supramundane reality. We are not, and we disguise our inability as progress, we despise our ancestors because they were fooled, they based their lives on lies. We know better than them.

That wasnt directly what I said. In some respects, we are beyond them, intellectually. In other respects, such as nationalism, we are behind them, ultimately due to the Zionist influence on Europe and America imposed by Christianity, and the associated cultural developments leading to progressivism and multiculturalism.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

Can you prove that? Some quotation from the Gospels, maybe? It would be difficult to find one, since Jesus spends the whole Gospels criticizing jews, their hypocritical ways, to the point that the only act of violence of Jesus in the Gospels is against those jewish merchants that were selling their goods in the temple. I find Jesus to be quite anti-jewish. Most true catholics are openly anti-semitic (as in anti-jewish), and jews have traditionally been considered deicidal in catholic coutries, and thus hated. I find nothing pro-zionistic in traditional cristianism.

There are lots of quotations in the bible, the book of Christianity. Whether it be the Gospel or the rest of the bible is less relevant. You must know this yourself. Jesus was not anti-Jewish, he was simply a reformist Judaist.

Research Biblical Zionism.
ICEJ: Biblical Zionism
ICEJ: Position

Concerning anti-semitism in people having embraced Semitic religions; thats a combination of many things, among others ignorance and the fact that Europeans never truly wanted to embrace Semitic culture. That there is nothing pro-Zionistic in Christian culture, is a lie.

Maybe you havent heard of Christian Zionism before?
Christian Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian-Zionism.org: Arab-Israeli Conflict - Christian Zionism - Bible - Israel - Zionism

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

Two last things:

1- Do you know that the greek alphabet is based on the phoenician one which is, well..., semitic? Shall we reject this spurious alphabet, and all the poetry, philosophy and history that has been built upon it?

2- What are, in your opinion, the greatest achievements of atheistic civilization? I would suggest Free market, Jackson Pollock and homosexual marriage

1 - and Arabs invented our current number system and algebra. But what did they utilize it for? Islam? We went to space. And anyway, the Phoenician alphabet ultimately derives from Egyptian hieroglyphs, and you and I ultimately derive from a single celled organism. It would be incorrect to assume that current Europe and its culture and achievements came out of the blue - it derives from more primitive cultures in Europe; and before humans more primitive species, and the Greek alphabet derives from a foreign, more primitive alphabet. Does that make Semitic religion/theism, mythology, tradition and culture acceptable for European nationalists? I think not.

2 - You cant possibly measure such things, how could you measure who is truly an atheist and who isnt? And it would be impossible then to quantify which grouping has made bigger achievements in society. But I can assure you, atheists over time has achieved much of the scientific progress in the world, because people educated in sciences and reason are often more likely to be atheists. Lots of thinkers and philosophers have also historically rejected theism. But I dont really care about that question.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

When we talk about big numbers, societies, civilizations, I think religion is an essential factor. As I said, I reached that conclussion reading History, it's not based in any religious prejudice.

Why is the Islamic civilization a menace to us? Because they are strongly religious, and that makes them powerful as a group. If they weren't religious, they wouldn't be more than one of the many third world cultures in this planet, as menacing to us as australian aboriginals.

Applying this to our case, I believe that much of our greatness as a civilization is based in our common religion: Christianism. Without Christianism we would have been turkified hundreds of years ago.

I agree that faith can unite a people and give it mental strength and thus an effort over other peoples and cultures. But you seriously have to look at the consequences of something like Islam. The consequences are that they are still living in the Dark Ages. Look at their society. They have not evolved. They have not the level of thought or technology we have, and they wont.

Something like fundamental Islam and Christianity is very damaging to a society.

Instead, look at neopaganism. Scandinavian paganism was what gave the Vikings their mental strength and efforts in war over enemies - why not invoke true European religion instead of foreign religions? I truly dont sympathize with any opposition to neopaganism. It was mere historical details that led to Christianity's dominance over European paganism, and we could've gotten the same societal benefits and less damage from our own faith, if we had only kept it.

At any level, we should choose our own paganism over foreign Semitic religions. Many nationalists do this, at least here in Scandinavia. We are lucky to have our original, own, complete European paganism. If we didnt, we would have to embrace Christianity to have a faith, but we dont.

[Martín Zalacaín]

Originally Posted by Degenuicide

Then you probably also find it philosophically hard to accept that its taken 4 billion years for our planet to develop human life, and subsequently tens of thousands of years for civilizations to emerge. But thats how this world works. I also, didnt claim that absolutely nothing good came out of it.

I wasn't speaking about that. I was pointing to the rejection of our past. In my opinion, people like you, who are ashamed of christianity and consider it some kind of cosmic error, are ultimately ashamed of being european.

I was referring to an ultimate advantage; like in reason over faith, or faith over reason. Faith can be good for a society as long as you dont reject reason (and that has happened numerous times; just see intelligent design over evolution).

Don't you find it interesting that those societies of the dark ages, like medieval christian societies, for instance, who based their worldview, their laws and their moral code on lies (faith) and wishful thinking, were societies that functioned much better than ours?

Paganism is near extinct, a pure piece of European culture. So is European culture and European people if we dont do all we can to preserve it. Thats why we need to revive European paganism; and thats why we need neopaganism.

I do not follow your logic. Wouldn't it be better to use Christianism instead, taking into account that Christianism is alive while paganism died hundreds of years ago? Oh, wait, I forgot that Christianism is a tool of the Zionists for hiding the real facts of the Holocaust! My mistake

That wasnt directly what I said. In some respects, we are beyond them, intellectually. In other respects, such as nationalism, we are behind them, ultimately due to the Zionist influence on Europe and America imposed by Christianity, and the associated cultural developments leading to progressivism and multiculturalism.

You are getting paranoid. What do you think about this ecuation:

Progressive regression of nationalism = Progressive decline of christianity.

There were nationalist christians for more that 1000 years and when their faith starts to fade, nationalism also fades. Coincidence?

There are lots of quotations in the bible, the book of Christianity. Whether it be the Gospel or the rest of the bible is less relevant. You must know this yourself. Jesus was not anti-Jewish, he was simply a reformist Judaist.

Research Biblical Zionism.
ICEJ: Biblical Zionism
ICEJ: Position

Concerning anti-semitism in people having embraced Semitic religions; thats a combination of many things, among others ignorance and the fact that Europeans never truly wanted to embrace Semitic culture. That there is nothing pro-Zionistic in Christian culture, is a lie.

Maybe you havent heard of Christian Zionism before?
Christian Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian-Zionism.org: Arab-Israeli Conflict - Christian Zionism - Bible - Israel - Zionism

Ok, and what do you think about what I said on my previous post about the hate professed towards jews in all catholic nations for about 1000 years? What was that, a remnant of our pagan past?

You say that hate towards jews was based on ignorance of the true essence of Christian doctrine. They were supposed to worship the jews, but they didn't get it, right?

Well maybe if I didn´t live in a country that was nationalist, catholic and officially anti-semitic until 1975 I would even believe you

1 - and Arabs invented our current number system and algebra. But what did they utilize it for? Islam? We went to space. And anyway, the Phoenician alphabet ultimately derives from Egyptian hieroglyphs, and you and I ultimately derive from a single celled organism. It would be incorrect to assume that current Europe and its culture and achievements came out of the blue - it derives from more primitive cultures in Europe; and before humans more primitive species, and the Greek alphabet derives from a foreign, more primitive alphabet. Does that make Semitic religion/theism, mythology, tradition and culture acceptable for European nationalists? I think not.

So in your opinion Aquinas, Dante, Michelangelo, etc, were a bunch of retards who didn't notice that they were whorsipping a foreign god. So maybe, after all, we the europeans are not that intelligent and glorious, are we? We spent more than 1500 years fooled by the zionists, but finally, in this age of enlightment we were able to liberate ourselves.

I will pose another ecuation:

Rise of atheism since 1789 = Rise to power of jews.

Coincidence?

2 - You cant possibly measure such things, how could you measure who is truly an atheist and who isnt? And it would be impossible then to quantify which grouping has made bigger achievements in society. But I can assure you, atheists over time has achieved much of the scientific progress in the world, because people educated in sciences and reason are often more likely to be atheists. Lots of thinkers and philosophers have also historically rejected theism. But I dont really care about that question.

Are you insinuating that all the true european christian geniouses were actually atheists deep in their hearts?

I agree that faith can unite a people and give it mental strength and thus an effort over other peoples and cultures. But you seriously have to look at the consequences of something like Islam. The consequences are that they are still living in the Dark Ages. Look at their society. They have not evolved. They have not the level of thought or technology we have, and they wont.

Something like fundamental Islam and Christianity is very damaging to a society.

Instead, look at neopaganism. Scandinavian paganism was what gave the Vikings their mental strength and efforts in war over enemies - why not invoke true European religion instead of foreign religions? I truly dont sympathize with any opposition to neopaganism. It was mere historical details that led to Christianity's dominance over European paganism, and we could've gotten the same societal benefits and less damage from our own faith, if we had only kept it.

At any level, we should choose our own paganism over foreign Semitic religions. Many nationalists do this, at least here in Scandinavia. We are lucky to have our original, own, complete European paganism. If we didnt, we would have to embrace Christianity to have a faith, but we dont.

My main point of disagreement with your assertions is that you say that we have evolved towards good, and I believe that we are at our lowest. We are at the brink of disintegration as a civilization, we've lost our values, our dignity, our pride. We've lost everything that's metaphysical, while ruling in the physical realm. We are the kings of technology, I agree. But that means nothing to me. All the glory of europe was conquered not through technology, but through the spirit, be it pagan or christian.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

I wasn't speaking about that. I was pointing to the rejection of our past. In my opinion, people like you, who are ashamed of christianity and consider it some kind of cosmic error, are ultimately ashamed of being european.

Don't you find it interesting that those societies of the dark ages, like medieval christian societies, for instance, who based their worldview, their laws and their moral code on lies (faith) and wishful thinking, were societies that functioned much better than ours?

To first chunk - first of all, your assertion that anti-Christian Europeans are ultimately ashamed of being European, is very very incorrect. I'm proud of how well Europeans have managed all though of the influence of a foreign religion. I am proud of our way of turning something negative into something good; of learning of our mistakes and of our way of correcting such historical mistakes. That is also, what most people on this site are trying to do right now: correct many European's and Europe's as a society current mistake in being anti-nationalistic.

I know you werent speaking about that, but I was drawing an analogy between one instance of what you call a "rejection of the path", and what I referred to as evolution.

I also tried to empathize that the primitive predecessor in a development or process of evolution doesnt necessarily have to be rejected nor admired; simply acknowledged as the originator that led to the current state of things - and whether the current state is good or bad, is as you showed a good example of, by expressing your admiration of some elements in the preceding society (like I, by the way, also did) - subjective.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

I do not follow your logic. Wouldn't it be better to use Christianism instead, taking into account that Christianism is alive while paganism died hundreds of years ago? Oh, wait, I forgot that Christianism is a tool of the Zionists for hiding the real facts of the Holocaust! My mistake

I know you were just joking, but the influence of Zionism on the world is often ridiculed as conspiracy theories when mentioned - and it is more than just that, and a lot of people know that. Paganism never completely died, at least not Nordic paganism, theres always been a few groups trying to keep it alive. It did cease to be the main religion when Christianity came, thats not the same as dieing out though. If that was the case, it would be very hard to reconstruct the ancient traditions

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

You are getting paranoid. What do think about this ecuation:

Progressive regression of nationalism = Progressive decline of christianity.

There were nationalist christians for more that 1000 years and when their faith starts to fade, nationalism also fades. Coincidence?

I dont agree. Nationalism started fading before faith. Faith started fading with the youth spawned by the anti-racists, who started to reject faith in a much higher degree and question society.

Christianity is good for the Zionist agenda, because of the favors Jews get from Christian society. Hell, as I referred to, Christianity has always been the main power supporting Zionism. Its not a coincidence that the western leaders that supported the Mandate for a Jewish State in the late 1940's were Christian.

At that point in time, the first post-war years, it was CRUCIAL for the Zionist cause to get support by Christian countries; if everyone had been atheists at that point in time, there would be no Israel today.

Today, Zionists may support the atheist movement, I dont know. Its less critical for the West to be predominantly Christian today, anyway, after the Jews have gotten Israel and their 10,000 nukes or whatever.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

Ok, and what do you think about what I said on my previous post about the hate professed towards jews in all catholic nations for about 1000 years? What was that, a remnant of our pagan past?

You say that hate towards jews was based on ignorance of the true essence of Christian doctrine. They were supposed to worship the jews, but they didn't get it, right?

Well maybe if I didn´t live in a country that was nationalist, catholic and officially anti-semitic until 1975 I would even believe you

No, as I said, a combination of many things. A tyrannic Christian fundamentalist empire, that assumes superiority, and doesnt invoke any perspective or understanding of the historical roots of their own religious affinities in all their sentiments.

The Holy Crusades and so on, are a perfect example of the unbiblical nature of the actions of Christians. Based on what? Fundamentalism, and hostility to non-Christians, based on ignorance.

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

So in your opinion Aquinas, Dante, Michelangelo, etc, were a bunch of retards who didn't notice that they were whorsipping a foreign god. So maybe, after all, we the europeans are not that intelligent and glorious, are we? We spent more than 1500 years fooled by the zionists, but finally, in this age of enlightment we were able to liberate ourselves.

I will pose another ecuation:

Rise of atheism since 1789 = Rise to power of jews.

Coincidence?

No, thats an unfair extrapolation of what I said. And quite unconstructive for this discussion, might I add.

I dont think its fair to say even that there was a "rise of atheism since 1789", since society was generally Christian for much longer than that. Your average citizen of Europe was no philosopher, after all. The rise of power to the Jews is more correlated with the events scattered throughout the 19th and beginning/mid 20th century, than any other timeframe, like I explained earlier in this post.