Where was Dacia and who were Dacians? Relationship between old Dacia and modern Romania

[voresall]

The name Dacia was used to describe an ancient kingdom located in today's Romania and it was the Medieval Latin name for Denmark:

"From some indeterminate time in the early middle ages, the Latin name Dacia came to refer to Denmark (while still being used to refer to the Romanprovince, as well). Nobody seems to be exactly certain when this began, but Dudo certainly refers to "the Dacian tongue" spoken by the northmen."
(Dacia - Wiktionary)

The Little Chronicle of the Leire Kings, written in the 12th century AD speaks of Dan, king of Dacia, who reigned over the country for three years ("Erat Ergo Dan Rex in Dacia Per Triennium"). R.W.Chambers offers a very interesting footnote: Dacia = Den - Mark.

A reexamination of the Moseley Roll document shows that there is no reference either to King Dan or to the people called Dani; the first historical mentioning of them is made much later. Dani, Dania, Denmark are recent names which have replaced the old, traditional name of Dacia.

The arrival of the Danes from northern Scandinavia moved a part of the "Dacian" population to the territory occupied today by Holland, whose citizens still bear the name of Dutch people (pronounced very much like the Romanian word "daci") (see the Royal Dutch Oil Company, Dutch East India Company, Dutch Reformed Church, etc.).



Any theories why this happened?

[voresall]

I also found this:
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Rollo_of_Normandy

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

The ancient Dacia form Roman times, annexed by Trajan, was no doubt on the territory of present-day Romania.

The roman conquest of Dacia was a great mistake. The dacian state was a "great barrier" for the barbarians floods. When the romans destroyed the dacian state, this barrier disappeared, and the dacians were forced to live exclusively in the mountaineous areeas, pulled both by the romans(in south, and by the barbarians(in north). The mountaineous areeas becomed overpopulated, and the dacians spread in the balkan mountains(in south), and in the tatra mountains(in north). From tatra mountains, some of the dacian tribes went far to Denmark, looking for unpopulated pastures zones. from them are the Dacia designation of Denmark, a pre-viking population in the area. Evidences can be traced by similitudes from actualy romanian words, with danish, english, or dutch words.

[Kathara]

Originally Posted by Tarabos

Evidences can be traced by similitudes from actualy romanian words, with danish, english, or dutch words.

Can you give me an example? preferably of an English word.

[Lutiferre]

This all sounds more or less like it belongs in the category of alternate history, or historical revisionism.

[Uogiene]

There are some people in Lithuania, who claim that Southern Lithuanians, called Dzukai are the descendants of Dacians, who, according to some legend 'escaped to the North'. I will translate some more accurate info soon.

p.s.: sorry for offtopicking, I am just using the opportunity.

[Llywarch Hen]

There are toponymical traces of a subtribe of Dechane in Bohemia, but anything further afield is almost certain to be of the crop of modern Balkan wishful-thinking that they term 'history'.

[Savorgnan]

I think that we are dealing here with a pre/proto-Slavic Indo-European substratum of Eastern Europe, with common roots, toponyms/hydronyms and loanwords that you will find anywhere between the Danube, Black Sea and the Baltic.

[Tarabos]

Originally Posted by Kathara

Can you give me an example? preferably of an English word.

of course, are many:
1.
romanian: "betele"=archaic women belt
english: "belt"
danish: "bælte"
2.
romanian: "cretz"=curly; "incretit"=folded
english: "crease"=ply
danish: "knæk"
dutch: "kris"
.......................................

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

This all sounds more or less like it belongs in the category of alternate history, or historical revisionism.

maybe, but, in my oppinion revisionism mean to revise a prooven history, not an unsearched one. besides, i replied to the topic "Dacia: Romania or Denmark", even it belong to category alternative history.

Originally Posted by Gadlen

There are some people in Lithuania, who claim that Southern Lithuanians, called Dzukai are the descendants of Dacians, who, according to some legend 'escaped to the North'.

it sounds very interesting for me! i hope you'll carry on!

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

This all sounds more or less like it belongs in the category of alternate history, or historical revisionism.

ps: as i asked, once, an danish, he knew that denmark history begun with the vikings invasion, in 8-9 century. what i said, would been earlier.

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

There are toponymical traces of a subtribe of Dechane in Bohemia, but anything further afield is almost certain to be of the crop of modern Balkan wishful-thinking that they term 'history'.

it is absolutely nothing to afraid of: we speak here about verry thiny links. not about english language, like jamaicans, or packistaneese. besides, this include dacians spoke a germanic language: they were tracians, in 4 century bc, but till 1 century ad they asimilated many germanic&celtic tribes. look at dacians statues on Constantine arch and Trajan column: i think you'd be proud about such ancestors. on the other hand, romanians inherited, especialy, the dacian culture, not such much dacian blood. you can find many light eye&fair hairy, but, in average, romanians are light brunetts, and not such "germanic" talled.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Tarabos

it is absolutely nothing to afraid of: we speak here about verry thiny links. not about english language, like jamaicans, or packistaneese. besides, this include dacians spoke a germanic language: they were tracians, in 4 century bc,

Dacians spoke Germanic?!? What on Earth are you talking about?!? Are you just confusing the term 'Indogermanisch'?

but till 1 century ad they asimilated many germanic&celtic tribes. look at dacians statues on Constantine arch and Trajan column: i think you'd be proud about such ancestors. on the other hand, romanians inherited, especialy, the dacian culture, not such much dacian blood. you can find many light eye&fair hairy, but, in average, romanians are light brunetts, and not such "germanic" talled.

You're misunderstanding me, I wouldn't mind having Dacian ancestors - Decebalus and his countrymen were great heroes, undeniably. I haven't the slightest antipathy to Rumanians past or present, and certainly not from a silly racial point of view - I am a very dark complexioned Englishman, with dark hair and eyes!

I just don't see any reason to suppose any identity between Denmark and historical Dacia, beyond the pseudohistorical attempts of mediaeval writers to identify northern barbarian peoples with other peoples better known to the Classical World, in order to provide the former with a more venerable pedigree.

I would be prepared to discuss hypotheses of relationships between Dacians and later populations, but only if the scholarship this was based on was not of the absurd ridiculous variety as the following:

romanian: "betele"=archaic women belt
english: "belt"
danish: "bælte"

romanian: "cretz"=curly; "incretit"=folded
english: "crease"=ply
danish: "knæk"
dutch: "kris"

The parallels go back to IndoEuropean commonality, and prove NOTHING of your Dacian contact theory. Please try to be scientific and follow the basic rules of comparative linguistics.

How are the words you've given etymologised within the Romance family? What is the descent of the Germanic words you've given? If you don't answer such questions, you merely embarrass yourself.
You need to consider only those Rumanian words which lack a secure Romance or Slavonic origin. Incretit is clearly from Latin. Betele might be too, but we'd need to look at a Rumanian etymological dictionary.

Here is the etymology of Crease -
1578, altered from creaste, perhaps variant of crest, via meaning "a fold in a length of cloth" (1433) which produced a crest.
therefore irrelevant here.

Belt:
O.E. belt, from P.Gmc. *baltjaz (cf. O.H.G. balz, O.N. balti, Swed. bälte), an early borrowing from L. balteus "girdle, sword belt," said by Varro to be an Etruscan word.
No need for odd Balkan words, of uncertain etymology.

[Tarabos]

well, maybe i missundertood you, myfriend, concerning the racial concern of yours, but i didn't used the sintagme "modern balkan wishful-thinking". i don't wish anything: i'm equally interested in lithuanian, english... let's be serious: this topic is not a schoolars debate, and we are interested in all we find interesting, about subjects we made unanswered questions(especialy if this subjects concern our race). otherwise, why you shouldn't replied earlier, when voresall posted this topic? i don't claim this is the truth, but you have to recognise there are many paths, in history, not enough treaded. in fact, i have to confess, how i found this "danish conexion". first, i was amased about similitudes between british islands(including ireland) histories(legends), and dacians. like "morris dance", or irish song "the wolf from carpathians", or scotish highlanders life-style(if you want, we can discuss latter). in paralel, i was amased about the similitudes of romanian words(especialy with archaic resonance), with germanic words. thus, i discovered that ones of them soun much alike "romanian" in english, than in german. this two words are just two examples. i tried explanations, also, by roman legions, formed by dacians, but i found not evidences. then, i heard some legends about the migration of some dacians tribes in north: thus, i tried the "danish conexion".
i can give you many other examples of words, but, i know your internet dex-es have already explanations. i know, from my experience with romanian dex-es, that could by many explanations, from a dex to other; i can't face you in english explanations. i can just search about common indo-european words, and i don't found yet "crease", or "belt".
regards!

[Tarabos]

other examples:
romanian: floc_flotch(herd)
english: flock
german: herde
danish: flok
dutch: vlucht

romanian: frica(fear)
english: fear
german: furchten
danish: frygt
dutch: vrees

romanian: hoarda(crowd)
english: hoard
german: vorrat
danish: hamstre

[Tarabos]

other kind of examples:

romanian: shtiuc(piece)
english: piece, morcel
german: stück
danish: brik
dutch: stuk

romanian: zer(whey)
english: whey, serum
german: molke(wasser)
danish: valle
dutch: wei

romanian: cas(cheese)
english: cheese
german: käse
danish: ost
dutch: kaas

romanian: strugure(grape)
english: grape
german: traube
danish: druer
dutch: druiven

romanian: tzandara(sliver)
english: sliver
german: zunder
danish: tinder
dutch: tonder

[Monolith]

It is funny that many Albanian words have their counterparts in Romanian language.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Monolith

It is funny that many Albanian words have their counterparts in Romanian language.

Erm, why?

The sensible view of Rumanian linguistic origins is that the land north of the river Danube was settled by Vlach pastoralists from around the area of modern Serbia. These people formerly spoke the language that survived among the Albanians, but were Romanised under the Empire. When the Slavonic states were coalescing, some Vlachs went north to settle the former Dacian region, much disturbed in the age of Migrations. They absorbed many Slavonic and other elements, possibly some remnants of the old Dacians, maybe even encountering a few remaining Latin speakers (highly unlikely, but I include it to flatter silly Rumanians who insist on continuity from Trajan's days! ). They somehow got the upper hand over various Kuman and Magyar populations and Rumanianised the whole area.

Originally Posted by Tarabos

romanian: shtiuc(piece)

romanian: zer(whey)

romanian: cas(cheese)

romanian: tzandara(sliver)

Shtuka is present in Slavonic languages. Probably a fairly recent borrowing from German. Old English has styca.

zer sounds nothing like the Germanic variants, why did you include it?

Cheese in Germanic languages is seen as a very old borrowing from Latin, the ancestor of Rumanian.

Tzandara - interesting, I don't know.

other examples:
romanian: floc_flotch(herd)

romanian: frica(fear)

romanian: hoarda(crowd)

No comment on the first two which may be related somehow. The most sensible version would be a borrowing from early Germanic speakers of the region - Goths, Gepids, etc.

Hoarda is clearly a borrowing from the Tatars. It's the same as English horde, Russian Orda.

let's be serious: this topic is not a schoolars debate, and we are interested in all we find interesting, about subjects we made unanswered questions(especialy if this subjects concern our race).

Fair enough!

otherwise, why you shouldn't replied earlier, when voresall posted this topic?

I simply missed it.

i don't claim this is the truth, but you have to recognise there are many paths, in history, not enough treaded. in fact, i have to confess, how i found this "danish conexion". first, i was amased about similitudes between british islands(including ireland) histories(legends), and dacians. like "morris dance", or irish song "the wolf from carpathians", or scotish highlanders life-style(if you want, we can discuss latter). in paralel, i was amased about the similitudes of romanian words(especialy with archaic resonance), with germanic words. thus, i discovered that ones of them soun much alike "romanian" in english, than in german. this two words are just two examples. i tried explanations, also, by roman legions, formed by dacians, but i found not evidences. then, i heard some legends about the migration of some dacians tribes in north: thus, i tried the "danish conexion".

All similarities are fascinating, but I wager that they date to a fair earlier period of European commonality than the late Classical period.

i can give you many other examples of words, but, i know your internet dex-es have already explanations. i know, from my experience with romanian dex-es, that could by many explanations, from a dex to other; i can't face you in english explanations. i can just search about common indo-european words, and i don't found yet "crease", or "belt".
regards!

It's all an interesting exercise, but you should really try to employ some of the 'whittling down' techniques.