My theory on the Aryan invasions

[Galaico]

According to the traditional and historical belief, the Aryans were a nomadic people, proceeding from the Southern Russia steppes, which invaded Europe (displacing the Paleolithic Europeans) and the Indian subcontinent towards 2,600 B.C. They were the responsible of the expansion of the Indo-European languages and culture.

The truth is that the Aryan people have always been studied from a linguistic and cultural point of view. Something which, at first seems to be logical enough since the Aryan term is linguistic and cultural, not a racial term. But it is surprising that it has not been done any serious genetic analysis to determine the history of this people, since language and culture can lie, but genes do not.

The native peoples of Europe can be divided in three. The first ones came aprox. 40,000 years ago proceeding from the North-West Asia and were related with each other; these are the Paleo-Europeans of Eastern Europe (parents of the R1a haplotype) and the Paleo-Europeans of Western Europe (parents of the R1b haplotype). Approximately 20,000 years ago people coming from the Middle East, who brought the I haplotype, settled in the Balkans and later in Central and Northern Europe, these were the Balkano-Nordic people.

The Aryans, unlike what it is commonly beleived, were not foreign to these "Old Europeans”, it’s the other way around, the Aryans arosed from the Oriental Paleo-Europeans (R1a), it is not known exactly when, but it’s probable that it was coinciding with the arrival of the Neolithic peoples.

Now lets go with my theory:

Around the years 6,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C., Aryan (R1a) small migratory movements inside Europe began, occupying the Central and Northern Europe and absorbing the Balkano-Nordics. The migration did not come further, and did not affect in anything Western Europe, which remained practically Western Paleo-European pure (R1b pure with some Neolithic influence).

Aprox. in the year 3,000 B.C. the effects of the Neolithic Revolution and of sedentarism had provoked a considerable increase of the European population, specially in the West of the continent where the Neolithic advances had had more effect. Then, what happened? The Western Paleo-Europeans (R1b) began to move Eastward. Unlike what we believed the invasion was not from East to West, it was the other way around, the Aryan zones of Central and Eastern Europe mixed up with the Balkano-Nordic populations, were invaded by the Western Paleo-Europeans, and these when entered in touch with the Aryan culture and language, adopted them, giving place to the proto-Indo-Europeans from which Celts, Germanics, Slavs, and many others descend.

The previous paragraph would explain several things quite illogical till now. The Western Paleo-Europeans are practically pure in the haplotype R1b (the current influence of the haplotype I, on 15 % - 35% of the population came from the Germanic invasions in the beginning of the Middle Ages, not from Prehistoric migrations) and practically lack the Aryan haplotype R1a, something which would not be possible if really there had been an Aryan invasion of West Europe.
The theory of the Western invasion, would explain why the R1b haplotype is the most extended haplotype in Europe and is shared in big (at least significant) quantities through the whole continent. The adoption of the Aryan culture by Western Paleo-Europeans instead of an Aryan invasion would also explain several things: the fact that the Celts, being a practically pure R1b population had an Aryan (R1a) language and culture, the fact that there were (and still are) Western Paleo-European residual original linguistic “isles”, like the Basque, the Iberian, the Pict, the Ligurian, the Etruscan, etc., thing that did not happen when the Aryans invaded the Balkano-Nordics. For the skeptics, it is not so strange that the invaders adopt the culture of the defeated ones; e.g.: the Visigoths in Spain, the Normans in Normandy, the Bulgars (Altaic people adopting the Slavonic culture) in the current Bulgaria, the Longobards and Ostrogoths in Italy, etc.

After these explanations, lets continue:

The invasion of the Western people, provoked a displacement of many Central and East Europeans towards out of Europe. The European invasion of the Indian subcontinent began.

The “Aryan” invasion of India does not have a single European origin. If we really believed the official story of the Aryan invasions, and we believed that they were coming from the steppes of the south of Russia, a zone, of haplotype R1a, all the Indian subcontinent males of Aryan origin would only share the haplotype R1a, and this is not the truth, since the three European R1a, R1b, and I haplotypes are shared in big quantities.

Supposing, that the Aryan invasion was departing from a single European place, where the three haplotypes mentioned where shared in high quantities, the logical thing would be that the distribution of these three haplotypes was similar in the whole Indus-Iranian zone, so the logical thing would be, that there was more or less the same number of R1b (for example) in all the populations of Aryan origin, but that’s not what really happens. Let's see some examples:

R1a R1b I
Hazara Pakistanis: - 60% 4%
Parsi Pakistanis: 7% 25% 2%
Kashmir Pakistanis: 60% 25% -
Burusho Pakistanis: 25% 25% 7%
Kalash Pakistanis: 17% 10% 37%
Utar Pradesh Chamars: 45% 10% 45%
Ossetians: 2% 45% 10%
Iranis: 22% 3% 20%

These results confirm the different geographical origin, of the Aryan invaders, though all Europeans, some were coming from Western Paleo-European pure zones, others from Eastern Paleo-European pure zones, others from Balkano-Nordic pure zones, and others from mixed zones.

In conclusion, the Aryan invasion either of Europe and of India-Persia didn’t exist in racial terms. It existed a cultural Aryan invasion of both places, a racial European invasion of the Indian sub-continent, and a racial Western Paleo-European invasion of Central Europe and in less extent of Eastern Europe.

[papessa]

The native peoples of Europe can be divided in three. The first ones came aprox. 40,000 years ago proceeding from the North-West Asia and were related with each other; these are the Paleo-Europeans of Eastern Europe (parents of the R1a haplotype) and the Paleo-Europeans of Western Europe (parents of the R1b haplotype). Approximately 20,000 years ago people coming from the Middle East, who brought the I haplotype, settled in the Balkans and later in Central and Northern Europe, these were the Balkano-Nordic people.

It is very interesting and new... Do you know about researches od scientific from Schwiss who find that language of Arijans( wrote latter in Weda books) is alive still...Serbian (South Slavic) still talk "sanskrt" or "sinskrit" (means hiden sun) as "serbian or torlakian dialect?

[Laocoon]

Originally Posted by papessa

torlakian dialect?

Any connection with Tokharian?

Originally Posted by Galaico

For the skeptics, it is not so strange that the invaders adopt the culture of the defeated ones; e.g.: the Visigoths in Spain, the Normans in Normandy, the Bulgars (Altaic people adopting the Slavonic culture) in the current Bulgaria, the Longobards and Ostrogoths in Italy, etc.

But all these people were in a minority where they established and according to your theory, the Western people moving Eastward would have been in a majority but still they adopted foreign language and culture instead of imposing their own? Which implies the Western people would have been subjugated by Aryans even though the latter were the "invaders", like in the Aryans spreading Westward from the East theory.

Please, clear this point for me.

I don't know much about the said "Aryan" invasion, very interesting theory, anyhow.

[papessa]

Originally Posted by Duchemin

Any connection with Tokharian?

Torlaks lives in East Serbia, near Old Mountain, in Timok valley....Their speech is arhaic serbian speech and has a lot of "sanskrit" words ...
J must admitt J know nothing about Tokhar, will you explain to me? J remembered only term Tokharians snow mountains....

[Laocoon]

Originally Posted by papessa

J must admitt J know nothing about Tokhar, will you explain to me? J remembered only term Tokharians snow mountains....

J?... Anyway, about them :

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/indoeuropean.html
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tocharian
http://geography.berkeley.edu/Progra...s/mummies.html
http://departments.oxy.edu/languages...r/urumchi3.htm

Tokharian (also spelt Tocharian) is an extinct Indo-European language known from manuscript fragments of the 6th to 8th centuries A.D., coming from East (or Chinese) Turkestan.

Tokharian the extinct language has no relation to Iranian Tokharian (alt Tókharoi, Tukh?ra, Tuholo), which is a distinct language.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Duchemin

But all these people were in a minority where they established and according to your theory, the Western people moving Eastward would have been in a majority but still they adopted foreign language and culture instead of imposing their own? Which implies the Western people would have been subjugated by Aryans even though the latter were the "invaders", like in the Aryans spreading Westward from the East theory.

Please, clear this point for me.

I don't know much about the said "Aryan" invasion, very interesting theory, anyhow.

Sorry for answering so late, I just realised about the existance of these posts

I think that when West Paleo-Europeans started moving eastwards they were not a minority in Central Europe (Germany, Switzerland, Austria), but they were when they arrived to "Aryan East Europe".

[Truth-Finder]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Sorry for answering so late, I just realised about the existance of these posts

I think that when West Paleo-Europeans started moving eastwards they were not a minority in Central Europe (Germany, Switzerland, Austria), but they were when they arrived to "Aryan East Europe".

your thery makes quite sense IMO. Genetic data you compiled and your analysis of the same is most clever
Yet there`s a minor point is unclear to me:

Around the years 6,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C., Aryan (R1a) small migratory movements inside Europe began, occupying the Central and Northern Europe and absorbing the Balkano-Nordics.

I understand that the first Nordic skeletons in the morphological sense do not appear till the late neolithic...which period of the proto-history does 6000-4000 BC comprehend?

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by searcher_of_truth

Around the years 6,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C., Aryan (R1a) small migratory movements inside Europe began, occupying the Central and Northern Europe and absorbing the Balkano-Nordics.

I understand that the first Nordic skeletons in the morphological sense do not appear till the late neolithic...which period of the proto-history does 6000-4000 BC comprehend?

Medium Neolithic I suppose. Anyway, my "artificial" designation of the Balkano-Nordics does not refer to any kind of sub-racial basis, but to mere geographic situation.

[Truth-Finder]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Medium Neolithic I suppose. Anyway, my "artificial" designation of the Balkano-Nordics does not refer to any kind of sub-racial basis, but to mere geographic situation.

I suspected that . I didn`t read in detail all the points of your theory but from what I have already red, I found it more and more liable ... specially that it matches with latest genetic researchs that has found a kind of genetic likeness between the N Indian Aryans and the southern Russians (pls refer to a thread in this forum entitled something like <<The Aryans (well known...)>>

[goutsoullac]

Super!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MisterSinister]

Originally Posted by Galaico

According to the traditional and historical belief, the Aryans were a nomadic people, proceeding from the Southern Russia steppes, which invaded Europe (displacing the Paleolithic Europeans) and the Indian subcontinent towards 2,600 B.C. They were the responsible of the expansion of the Indo-European languages and culture.

The truth is that the Aryan people have always been studied from a linguistic and cultural point of view. Something which, at first seems to be logical enough since the Aryan term is linguistic and cultural, not a racial term. But it is surprising that it has not been done any serious genetic analysis to determine the history of this people, since language and culture can lie, but genes do not.

The native peoples of Europe can be divided in three. The first ones came aprox. 40,000 years ago proceeding from the North-West Asia and were related with each other; these are the Paleo-Europeans of Eastern Europe (parents of the R1a haplotype) and the Paleo-Europeans of Western Europe (parents of the R1b haplotype). Approximately 20,000 years ago people coming from the Middle East, who brought the I haplotype, settled in the Balkans and later in Central and Northern Europe, these were the Balkano-Nordic people.

The Aryans, unlike what it is commonly beleived, were not foreign to these "Old Europeans”, it’s the other way around, the Aryans arosed from the Oriental Paleo-Europeans (R1a), it is not known exactly when, but it’s probable that it was coinciding with the arrival of the Neolithic peoples.

Now lets go with my theory:

Around the years 6,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C., Aryan (R1a) small migratory movements inside Europe began, occupying the Central and Northern Europe and absorbing the Balkano-Nordics. The migration did not come further, and did not affect in anything Western Europe, which remained practically Western Paleo-European pure (R1b pure with some Neolithic influence).

Aprox. in the year 3,000 B.C. the effects of the Neolithic Revolution and of sedentarism had provoked a considerable increase of the European population, specially in the West of the continent where the Neolithic advances had had more effect. Then, what happened? The Western Paleo-Europeans (R1b) began to move Eastward. Unlike what we believed the invasion was not from East to West, it was the other way around, the Aryan zones of Central and Eastern Europe mixed up with the Balkano-Nordic populations, were invaded by the Western Paleo-Europeans, and these when entered in touch with the Aryan culture and language, adopted them, giving place to the proto-Indo-Europeans from which Celts, Germanics, Slavs, and many others descend.

The previous paragraph would explain several things quite illogical till now. The Western Paleo-Europeans are practically pure in the haplotype R1b (the current influence of the haplotype I, on 15 % - 35% of the population came from the Germanic invasions in the beginning of the Middle Ages, not from Prehistoric migrations) and practically lack the Aryan haplotype R1a, something which would not be possible if really there had been an Aryan invasion of West Europe.
The theory of the Western invasion, would explain why the R1b haplotype is the most extended haplotype in Europe and is shared in big (at least significant) quantities through the whole continent. The adoption of the Aryan culture by Western Paleo-Europeans instead of an Aryan invasion would also explain several things: the fact that the Celts, being a practically pure R1b population had an Aryan (R1a) language and culture, the fact that there were (and still are) Western Paleo-European residual original linguistic “isles”, like the Basque, the Iberian, the Pict, the Ligurian, the Etruscan, etc., thing that did not happen when the Aryans invaded the Balkano-Nordics. For the skeptics, it is not so strange that the invaders adopt the culture of the defeated ones; e.g.: the Visigoths in Spain, the Normans in Normandy, the Bulgars (Altaic people adopting the Slavonic culture) in the current Bulgaria, the Longobards and Ostrogoths in Italy, etc.

After these explanations, lets continue:

The invasion of the Western people, provoked a displacement of many Central and East Europeans towards out of Europe. The European invasion of the Indian subcontinent began.

The “Aryan” invasion of India does not have a single European origin. If we really believed the official story of the Aryan invasions, and we believed that they were coming from the steppes of the south of Russia, a zone, of haplotype R1a, all the Indian subcontinent males of Aryan origin would only share the haplotype R1a, and this is not the truth, since the three European R1a, R1b, and I haplotypes are shared in big quantities.

Supposing, that the Aryan invasion was departing from a single European place, where the three haplotypes mentioned where shared in high quantities, the logical thing would be that the distribution of these three haplotypes was similar in the whole Indus-Iranian zone, so the logical thing would be, that there was more or less the same number of R1b (for example) in all the populations of Aryan origin, but that’s not what really happens. Let's see some examples:

R1a R1b I
Hazara Pakistanis: - 60% 4%
Parsi Pakistanis: 7% 25% 2%
Kashmir Pakistanis: 60% 25% -
Burusho Pakistanis: 25% 25% 7%
Kalash Pakistanis: 17% 10% 37%
Utar Pradesh Chamars: 45% 10% 45%
Ossetians: 2% 45% 10%
Iranis: 22% 3% 20%

These results confirm the different geographical origin, of the Aryan invaders, though all Europeans, some were coming from Western Paleo-European pure zones, others from Eastern Paleo-European pure zones, others from Balkano-Nordic pure zones, and others from mixed zones.

In conclusion, the Aryan invasion either of Europe and of India-Persia didn’t exist in racial terms. It existed a cultural Aryan invasion of both places, a racial European invasion of the Indian sub-continent, and a racial Western Paleo-European invasion of Central Europe and in less extent of Eastern Europe.

Like you said, this is YOUR theory. There is still no serious proof of an Aryan invasion of India.

Aryan Invasion Theories

[Galaico]

It is completely outdated. I just figured it out when I began to read about haplogroups and found similar patterns around the Eurasian continent. Just ignore it.