On Nordo-Germanic supremacism (comments)

[Gil]

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

BTW, an question out of topic, are you the same as Manji?

Aye, it is I.

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

Well if by PIE you mean Proto-Indo-Europeans yes, It is what I mean.

Ah, ok.

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

Or rather that they were of cro-magnonid type, but the book on which I base my assumption (I don't remember the author now, it is an ukrainian living in Paris and working at the Paris institute of oriental studies) uses rather the term "proto-euroroids" by which I suppose he means "a primitive type of europoids" (which sends us back to Agrippa's well exposed concepts of primitive and progessive)

Well, supposedly what that author means is that they aren't "europids" but rather "proto-europoids" because they had yet to experience later mutations and evolutionary changes but they were, nonetheless, Cro-magnoids, unlike the IE peoples (or Kurgan if you want to use Gimbutas terminology) who were neolithic types or what we might even call "post-cromagnoids".

[Agrippa]

The reconstruction put aside, can you see any nordic trait him him from statues or from his mummy?

Well, he is closer to Nordoids by being a leptodolichomorphic Europid, but he doesnt strike me as being Nordid nor having any feature which can be explained just by Nordid admixture. However, I'm simply not able to be sure about his racial make up, he strikes as being rather Orientalo-Mediterranid though by morphology.

Proto-Europid = Cromagnoid. Doesnt have to mean really primitive, only in the sense of being an older Europid form, but not really archemorphic-primitive in any way, especially not for world standards, but ancestral to later Europid forms through leptomorphisation, Dinarisation and Baltisation etc.

I think nobody can know for sure who the PIE were, just one thing is for sure, namely that the Corded Ware people were Indoeuropeans and at least crucial for Kelto-Germanics and Baltoslavs, most likely for all other European IE too. The line from Kurgan goes directly into Aryans/Iranians/Irano-Scythians, thats known too.

The Kurgans were at least insofar Neolithics as they bred animals and were herders, used the horse, genetic-racial Neolithic influences from outside of Europe is another matter and can be discussed.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Gil

Er... that's a bit of a mix concept there because Marija Gimbutas believed that the Kurgan (aka Indo-Europeans) were a neolithic folk which invaded Europe and displaced/interbreed with the "Old Europeans"; the Proto-Indo-Europeans were Cro-magnoids but the Indo Europeans were Neolithic types, probably with different looks due to adaptation and feeding habits.

More, Cro-magnoids are associated with R1b while Kurgan/Indo-Europeans are associated with R1a1 and the M17 mutation.

If R1b is associated with Paleo-European and R1a1 is associated with Indo-European, what is I (presumably Nordic) associated with?

Edit: Unless you mean that the PIE were cromagnoids because if that is what you meant then you are right.

¿Qué? (explain?)

[Gil]

Well, the "Kurgan folk" was culturally neolithic and probably had originated southwards or eastwards: their mobility (horse domestication) and higher knowledge of iron working points in the direction of a warmer climate evolution; that is not to say that they had specifically adapted to a warmer climate but rather that that was their point of origin seeing as a northern origin seems unlikely (due to ice caps and generally speaking harsh climate) and also the dispersion of neolithic culture being from a south-eastern source.

Mynydd: brief overview:

Haplogroup R1a1 (M17) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup, that is spread across Eurasia.

It is common in Europe, Northern Central Asia and India. In Europe the highest frequencies are in Eastern Europe. Today it is found with its highest levels in Poland and Russia, where one out of two men has this haplogroup. Relatively high frequencies are also found in Northern Europe and is believed to have been spread across Europe by the Vikings, which accounts for the existence of it in, among other places, the British Isles.


Haplogroup I (M170) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. Very high frequencies in Croatia and Scandinavia

Haplogroup I (pronounced "eye") is native to the Middle East and Europe. It can be found in most European populations, most commonly in Scandinavia and Croatia. Its initial spread is believed to be connected to migrations of people during the last glacial maximum (LGM).

Just as a note, Haplogroup I first arrived in Europe around 20,000-25,000 years ago from the Middle East while the first carriers of the R1a1 haplotype are believed to have been nomadic farmers in the steppes of east Europe about 10,000 years ago. Current theories point to them being the first speakers of the proto-Indo-European languages (the Kurgan culture) and the first ones to domesticate the horse.

[Truth-Finder]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

However, I'm simply not able to be sure about his racial make up, he strikes as being rather Orientalo-Mediterranid though by morphology.

Samething concluded Lionel Balout, the anthropologist who measured his mummy in 1976 when was brought to Paris for his preservation.
What appals me in Earlson's page is that he quotes the book by egyptologist Christiane Desroches-Noblecourt when she says that Ramses I was of the ancient north-african mediterranean stock


The Cordedware culture seems indeed to have been most important in the formation of many later historical ethnocultural entities...

There's only one way to know who the former PIE were ... psycophonies.
This job must be handled by a team serious parapsychologist who should proceed as follow:

-They spot a very representative archeological site corresponding to the Kurgan culture (no need to be a necropole as cemeteries and assimilated usually are the places were psycophonies are spoted)
-They visit the site provided with recorders, tapes and microphones.
-After they has installed the material for auditive recordings they say in a loud voice "Where Are you?" "Who are you?" Then they can start the recording before leaving
-Once the recording is over they recover all the material and proceed to the lecture of the recorded tape; voices of the past should be audible from the tapes.
-Linguist should be able then to say if wherther the sounds they hear could be those of an ancestral Proto-Indoeuropean language




Searcher-of-truth-THE-MEDIUM has spoken

[Truth-Finder]

ERRATUM"-They spot a very representative archeological site corresponding to the Kurgan culture (no need to be a necropole as cemeteries and assimilated usually are the places were psycophonies are spoted)"

PLEASE READ "as cemeteries and assimilated usually are the places were psycophonies are THE LESS spoted


thankie

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Gil

Well, the "Kurgan folk" was culturally neolithic and probably had originated southwards or eastwards: their mobility (horse domestication) and higher knowledge of iron working points in the direction of a warmer climate evolution; that is not to say that they had specifically adapted to a warmer climate but rather that that was their point of origin seeing as a northern origin seems unlikely (due to ice caps and generally speaking harsh climate) and also the dispersion of neolithic culture being from a south-eastern source.

There was rather racial-population continuity in that area though. The early Neolithic influences (genetically) might have been rather minor. Furthermore what do you mean with iron working? The crucial period was long before the Iron Age and metal workings with iron were first produced on a higher level by the Hittites. From there it spread in all directions, that has nothing to do with heavy demographic changes, that was really rather a cultural phenomonen, even if it changed communities and finally lead to a more warlike period again with great migrations etc.

And the harsh climate disappeared already earlier, what has that to do with population continuity in much later Neolithic times? There were Neolithic immigrations, yes, and they might have brought PIE even (LBK and related) like I speculated once, but the dominant type in most Kurgan graves was Cromagnoid (with Mediterranoid and Nordoid). Cromagnoids didnt spread the early Neolithic culture primarily, that were (Proto-) Mediterranoids mostly.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Possible. However, pure dark + pure light hair and eye pigmentation = dark.

Recessive indeed. But strongly re-emergent at the same time. I've lost count of the many red haired little children that i've seen around here in the last decade or so, with dark hair and even swarthy mothers.

Again, phenotypically speaking I am a xerocopy of my father. But my sister's child (the husband being a Portuguese, also Atlanto-Mediterranean) has taken after my mother.

So, recessiveness does not equal to vanishing among Europids.

Recalling from my memory, one of the most beautiful girls I remember is one who was on our same political group, in Madrid. As far as I recall, she would look like an Atlanto-Mediterranean with cherry red hair. Blame me for whatever, but I can't but say that such mixture is heaven on earth.

Statistically yes, but its still light pigmentation and occurs quite frequently in Nordid individuals too. His blue eyes being more important me thinks though.

If red hair is assumed Cromagnid, then it is not Nordid other than present through admixture. Or.. ?

Going after the reconstruction no, at least not predominantely. Furthermore Berberids-Cromagnoids being light pigmented too and their influence is more likely than Nordid proper.

I took a cab two days ago, and I could see that the driver was North African, though not the typical North African that you see here these days (Moroccans). Well, he might have been. I asked him. He was Egyptian. Strong North African Cromagnoid traits.. probably Negroid admixture too, but hardly noticeable. I would have believed him had he told me that he was a Kabyle Berber.

Should make anyone wonder if the ancient Egyptians were not Berbers too. But I suppose that making them from a far away land (Nordoid or Australoid) makes the story all the more exotic.

Absolutely. Those which claim that all civilisation is the work of Nordids and Nordids alone are of course retarded

For High Civilisations, try to mentally work out what the needed elements are. Then you'll have found a recipe. Next look into several sub-types characteristics, and you will find one or more ingredients in each type. Except, perhaps, in the case of the Minoans and perhaps others.

Because on does see the good qualities of the Nordid type he should not ignore the qualities of others. Same goes for every group orientation, that would be not just unfair but would also lead to a chronic underrating of potential friends and foes.

The problem being that the good qualities of the Nordid type are being propagated by no few through agression to other types.

I could make a more elaborate analysis on that phenomenon, but hopefully it won't be necessary here.

I'm no Nordicist in the sense of saying the good qualities being only present in Nordids and all other races are of lower value in any case. Nordids have great qualities and are superior for certain areas, but obviously not for all (most obvious case is the UV and plague-problem).

In my opinion, you mean well with your analyses and sintheses. I have no doubt about it. Just as I have no doubt that you are not a Nordicist in the negative sense of the word.

However, there is a contrast in your views and your perception of things. I'd dare say that a dualism.

You put an emphasis on analyzing societies and peoples almost strictly based on Social Anthropology through Physical Anthropology. Then, without meaning it --and I am almost sure that also without realizing about it-- you fall into a materialist view of the individual. Yet, politically speaking, you have a strong bent towards non-materialist collectivism.

Almost a dualism. It would be a dualism completely if you found a balance between those materialist views and spiritual views. But somehow I feel that you fall short there, substituting spiritualism with materialist collectivism.


I hope I made sense of it. Sorry, those were some thoughts out of the top of my head that I had been playing with for some time.


A tip: let the Atlanto-Mediterranean inside you fly and feel the marvel of inner freedom.

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

There was rather racial-population continuity in that area though. The early Neolithic influences (genetically) might have been rather minor. Furthermore what do you mean with iron working?

The crucial point (for expansion) was long before, as you say, but, and keep in mind i'm using the Gimbutas theory here, she also stated that it was the Kurgan culture (probably in it's expansion southwards) that gave origin to the development of iron tools and not the othe way around (metal working coming from a South Eastern source). She called this the "secondary Urheimat" and also "late PIE expansion".

Originally Posted by Agrippa

And the harsh climate disappeared already earlier, what has that to do with population continuity in much later Neolithic times?

Because in the original "Urheimat" (to use her terminology" conditions weren't exactly favourable and you probably agree with me that no matter when these pressures occur they always have impact on populations.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

the dominant type in most Kurgan graves was Cromagnoid (with Mediterranoid and Nordoid).

You mean Kurgan graves "proper" or, after their expansion, in new settled territories? I'm asking cause in the later case there might be some intermediary types present.

[Agrippa]

Recessive indeed. But strongly re-emergent at the same time. I've lost count of the many red haired little children that i've seen around here in the last decade or so, with dark hair and even swarthy mothers.

Again, phenotypically speaking I am a xerocopy of my father. But my sister's child (the husband being a Portuguese, also Atlanto-Mediterranean) has taken after my mother.

So, recessiveness does not equal to vanishing among Europids.

Thats true, but pigmentation-wise the Nordoid element shows just up on a much lower level than being present genetically and by other traits because of the recessive character. In my opinion about 20-30 percent in a 50 : 50 mixed population. So about 50 percent would show tall stature, lighter skin and facial traits etc. but just 20-30 percent light hair and/or eye pigmentation in my opinion.

Recalling from my memory, one of the most beautiful girls I remember is one who was on our same political group, in Madrid. As far as I recall, she would look like an Atlanto-Mediterranean with cherry red hair. Blame me for whatever, but I can't but say that such mixture is heaven on earth.

In my personal opinion Nordid and Atlanto-Pontid forms are among the most progressive if not the most progressive forms and have the highest percentage of attractive and balanced people in both sexes. Atlanto-Pontids are just the more Southern version or Nordids vice versa depending on perspective in many ways at least anyway.

If red hair is assumed Cromagnid, then it is not Nordid other than present through admixture. Or.. ?

Some traits are to me "absolute indicators" others just a question of frequency. F.e. blond hair alone doesnt make an Armenid Nordid nor even Nordid influenced with certainty neither. Red hair being present in Nordids and many Nordids have ancient Cromagnoid admixture anyway, one can't draw clear borders on that other than by the exact physical-racial type.

But somehow I feel that you fall short there, substituting spiritualism with materialist collectivism.

There is a certain problem here, but thats not "my fault" I'm saying, its the context and time I'm living in which makes things problematic since the unity of biotype and culture type being not present.

But finally my views on that are easy to understand, you explained it in a way yourself already when you said "think about the ingredients". Yes I did and came to the conclusion that one needs a racially progressive Biotype as backbone of the society at least if not as exclusive element and a certain socio-cultural system which suits them well and allows them to develop their best qualities, use a large portion of their potential for themselves and community and finally evolving on to even higher levels on the long run. I'm not confusing things, but think of both. So for some it might look often like a confusion, but finally its about two different ingredients, both important, one failing without the other for a progressive and collectivist society.

Originally Posted by Gil

She called this the "secondary Urheimat" and also "late PIE expansion".

Yes, there was a Neolithic, a Bronze Age and Iron Age expansion, in fact the Indoeuropean expansions didnt stopped until recently, just think about Western European expansions into the Americas and Russian-Slavic ones into Northern Asia.
However, whats more important is the formation period, when the crucial racial and cultural traits evolved. The Iron Age was an important period for later expansions obviously...

You mean Kurgan graves "proper" or, after their expansion, in new settled territories? I'm asking cause in the later case there might be some intermediary types present.

Older, original Kurgan graves.

You read the Schwidetzky article (on Skadi) and my thread about Finno-Ugrians?
http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=37593

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Thats true, but pigmentation-wise the Nordoid element shows just up on a much lower level than being present genetically and by other traits because of the recessive character.

A fortunate happening in many cases. Think that my nephew will have to daub himself with sun-block creams for the rest of his days.

If adaptive traits are a sign of physical progressiveness, what do you make of the fact that dark Atlanto-Mediterraneans are both resistant to hot weather and strong light exposition and present no problems to adapting to cold weather conditions with little sun light exposition?

Although now that I think about it, it is also true that many Skando-Nordics do tan even and nicely.

In my personal opinion Nordid and Atlanto-Pontid forms are among the most progressive if not the most progressive forms and have the highest percentage of attractive and balanced people in both sexes. Atlanto-Pontids are just the more Southern version or Nordids vice versa depending on perspective in many ways at least anyway.

I assume that "Atlanto-Pontids" are Atlanto-Mediterreans and Pontids here?

Some traits are to me "absolute indicators" others just a question of frequency. F.e. blond hair alone doesnt make an Armenid Nordid nor even Nordid influenced with certainty neither.

Just like brown or black hair wouldn't make them Mediterranids.

Red hair being present in Nordids and many Nordids have ancient Cromagnoid admixture anyway, one can't draw clear borders on that other than by the exact physical-racial type.

In any case there exists a Northern Cromagnoid and a Southern Cromagnoid. Or maybe it is only admixture what makes them different?

There is a certain problem here, but thats not "my fault"

I'm only pointing to a trend that I have observed. Not pointing a finger looking who to blame.

I'm saying, its the context and time I'm living in which makes things problematic since the unity of biotype and culture type being not present.

But finally my views on that are easy to understand, you explained it in a way yourself already when you said "think about the ingredients". Yes I did and came to the conclusion that one needs a racially progressive Biotype as backbone of the society at least if not as exclusive element and a certain socio-cultural system which suits them well and allows them to develop their best qualities, use a large portion of their potential for themselves and community and finally evolving on to even higher levels on the long run.

That's clear to me after all this time reading your posts and discussing. Although I doubt it that it is any clear to the casual reader.

But still I think that you focus too much on a kernel type, neglecting to some level the [much needed] qualities of the other types. It is in my opinion very easy and common to fall into that mistake.

I'm not confusing things, but think of both. So for some it might look often like a confusion, but finally its about two different ingredients, both important, one failing without the other for a progressive and collectivist society.

Absolutely.

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

If adaptive traits are a sign of physical progressiveness, what do you make of the fact that dark Atlanto-Mediterraneans are both resistant to hot weather and strong light exposition and present no problems to adapting to cold weather conditions with little sun light exposition?

Their main problem would be the winter months in colder, more cloudy and hungry times. Nordids being depigmented to a higher degree on average, therefore being able to use even the low UV-rays in this months and have a higher degree of lactose tolerance.
Furthermore neither A-M nor Nordids being real cold types, but temperate climate variants. Light A-M can have partly a better UV-utilisation and sensibility than some Nordids, the border is really fluent though the averages are clear.

I assume that "Atlanto-Pontids" are Atlanto-Mediterreans and Pontids here?

Yes, all taller, less gracile, larger sized and usually mostly lighter Mediterranid variants.

Just like brown or black hair wouldn't make them Mediterranids.

Exactly, though the chance for having Nordid admixture at least with blond hair are lighter than vice versa, because more types are dark than light haired and light hairs are recessive...

In any case there exists a Northern Cromagnoid and a Southern Cromagnoid. Or maybe it is only admixture what makes them different?

There exist basic Cromagnid variants (Dalofaelid-Eastcromagnid [Northern Cromagnid], Palaeatlantid, Berberid) and altered Cromagnoid ones.

That's clear to me after all this time reading your posts and discussing. Although I doubt it that it is any clear to the casual reader.

I'm aware of that problem, but oh well, I write too long posts too often anyway and can't repeat whole systems of thought all the time...

But still I think that you focus too much on a kernel type, neglecting to some level the [much needed] qualities of the other types. It is in my opinion very easy and common to fall into that mistake.

In various threads here and elsewhere I noted that other variants can be useful for the group too, f.e. the "hypomanic organiser, socialiser and entrepreneur". However, only in combination with the core variants and whereas the typical progressive types can function on a high level on their own, the same can't be said for the others with the same certainty.
Even more important, the future will not be like the past and more like the more distant past socially, since certain social elements will be of less importance in a more advanced socio-economic future. F.e. whereas a dumb-slow individual which is just able to work hard and constant without having any higher Idealism, creativity or higher abilities was in a way very useful, especially because he was easier to handle for the elite, such variants will be of less and less importance with technological-economical progress. He wouldnt have won in a group competition, assuming all had this traits, in a Bronze Age group selective situation neither.

So in a way we should come back to this high standards of the past before division of labour led to a social stratification which was contraselective. Still divisions of labour will be present, but the "downbreeding of lower classes" or isolated groups under unfavourable living conditions must stop and be inverted. Obviously its more important for the group that the elite has the highest standards, but on the long run an advanced modern society will need and function better with a better and bigger base of the whole group.

One has always to distinguish between the peak types, the elite which leads, the associated higher form which being the core and backbone of the group, the good variation (different but of similar-equal value), the tolerance (not high-level but integrable) and the variation outside of it (f.e. pathological, degenerated, extremely one sided in a negative way, very foreign: simply not integrable).