Germany: No Peace Treaty After 60 Years

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Reinhold Elstner

Then you are not paying attention Mr Biggles. The difference was the British bombed civilians as a matter of policy, the Germans did not. The accident referred to was in Dublin, not a British city.

No i actually meant Coventry, Liverpool, Sheffield, Manchester, London etc, for disruptive attacks on the population and air defences of major British cities, including London, by day and night, that was a directive by Hitler on Sept 5th 1940.

Good, but the problem is that you (and anyone else brought up in the English-speaking world) have been almost exclusively exposed to the allied version of WWII. One has to make an effort to get a balanced picture. It can aslo be personally quite shocking to have to revise your views of the past and I say that as someone from a neutral state who was nevertheless brought up on the allied = good version of events.

If i forget im British while researching it then it will be easier, but like Zyklop with Germany its very hard to not defend your home .

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

If i forget im British while researching it then it will be easier, but like Zyklop with Germany its very hard to not defend your home .

No one could argue with that. Think about Paul Rassinier. He was a French socialist member of parliament who was captured by the Germans, tortured by the Gestapo, and sent to a concentration camp. You would think he had every reason to take a biased view of the Nazis. But Rassinier is the father of holocaust revisionism. It is he who came back to France and couldn't listen to all the lies that were being told about the Germans and the camps and set about exposing it all. So you see, objectivity and detachment is possible in the study of history, notwithstanding our various allegiances.
So instead of listening to an Irishman and a German, why not listen to some Englishmen? I have already mentioned Irving, an excellent historian despite the Jewish attempt to destroy his name. Many of his books are downloadable from his site: http://www.fpp.co.uk/
A good place to start for the alternative political history would be here: http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres4/leese.pdf
Arnold Leese's book 'The Jewish War of Survival'. He goes into detail about Churchill and the war party and the background to what was happening in Britain during the 1930's. Leese was locked up without trial during the war because he denounced it. That's what happens to true patriots.
You might also look at the life and writings of Oswald Mosley, to my mind, one of the greatest Englishman of the 20th century. Most of his writings are available online at http://www.oswaldmosley.com/ . Mosely wanted Britain to have nothing to do with a war with Germany. He rightly saw what the whole business was really about.

[Aeternitas]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

Yup it was either be occupied by Communist Russia or put up with huge amounts of US military hardware stationed in your country, turned out the best way

The best way? Says who, you? Ok...

Not meaning to be hurtful or rude, but it was war, i could go find numerous instances of Civilians bombed by German planes in cities here in Britain, but it was war and things like that happened.

Sure, you can say it was war et al. but the least they could do for us is recognize the real number of people that lost their lives in the bombing, especially since they so love to shove the eternal '6 million' down our throats.
Your national "hero", Mr. Winston Churchill, the man who George Bush loves to praise did not seem to care much about the lives of these people or assume any responsibility at all. "I thought the Americans did it" was what this man had to say about it.

Churchill came to office in May 1940, i wont say he wasnt involved in something dubious like you say before then as i dont know, but the war started 3 Sept 1939.

Sure.
"Germany is getting too strong. We must crush her" (Churchill in 1936)

Originally Posted by Napoleone Buonaparte

This anti-Americanism is foolish when there are European-Americans that are in the same boat and know that this has gone on way too long!!!

I'm sorry, but this is about European matters that Americans have been poking their nose into for too long. No offense intended, but it's high time they stayed out of our history.

[Aeternitas]

And if I had to choose between Communism and Americanism, I'd choose Communism without a doubt.

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

The best way? Says who, you? Ok...

Well at least with the US forces in your country you can still voice your opinion without getting a knock on the door afterwards.

Sure, you can say it was war et al. but the least they could do for us is recognize the real number of people that lost their lives in the bombing, especially since they so love to shove the eternal '6 million' down our throats.
Your national "hero", Mr. Winston Churchill, the man who George Bush loves to praise did not seem to care much about the lives of these people or assume any responsibility at all. "I thought the Americans did it" was what this man had to say about it.

Do you know how many British civilians died through German bombing here ? You probably dont care, if i was to have a go at you for the German`s bombing of British cities and the thousands who died in that what could you reply with ?, perhaps "It was war" ?

Sure.
"Germany is getting too strong. We must crush her" (Churchill in 1936)

I personally dont see much sinister with this quote at all, Germany was getting strong, and he recognised the danger in sitting back, we can debate it all we want now, but at the time Germany was rearming and looking to expand.

I could go dig out any number of Hitler quotes if you want, i didnt see Britain invade Poland and mock it as a Polish attack to justify the invasion.

Of course nothing i say about Churchill will mean anything really, because it will just sound like me defending him which your expect from a Brit anyway, just like i expect you to defend Germany and make Churchill out to be an evil doer, he wasnt an angel no, but compared to Hitler he was a damn sight better.

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

Well at least with the US forces in your country you can still voice your opinion without getting a knock on the door afterwards.

Not for long in Britain, Blair is working on that one for you as well.

Do you know how many British civilians died through German bombing here ?

The official figures say 60 thousand. But in one night raid on Hamburg alone 45,000 were killed. In the raid on Dresden perhaps as many as 130 thousand - over twice the number for Britain during the whole war! The British and USAF used phosphorous which was a banned weapon and ordered a press blackout on its use - rather like the use of cluster munitions in Iraq. Yet more parallels between WWII and Iraq.

You probably dont care, if i was to have a go at you for the German`s bombing of British cities and the thousands who died in that what could you reply with ?, perhaps "It was war" ?

My answer would be the same as my previous: the British "terror bombings" of civilians were a matter of policy using banned weapons in conditions of secrecy because they knew the ordinary Birtish people would be horrified.

I personally dont see much sinister with this quote at all, Germany was getting strong, and he recognised the danger in sitting back, we can debate it all we want now, but at the time Germany was rearming and looking to expand.

Nonsense. Do some research before putting your foot in it. Germany was seriously underarmed when the liar and war-monger Churchill said that.

I could go dig out any number of Hitler quotes if you want, i didnt see Britain invade Poland and mock it as a Polish attack to justify the invasion.

Why don't you find out the reasons for the invasion of Poland?

Of course nothing i say about Churchill will mean anything really, because it will just sound like me defending him which your expect from a Brit anyway, just like i expect you to defend Germany and make Churchill out to be an evil doer, he wasnt an angel no, but compared to Hitler he was a damn sight better.

No one expects you to defend Churchill just because you are British. But if you coldy stuidy the real record you will find out that Churchill was a remarkably shortsighted and brutal man who plunged Britain into a fuitile war which resulted in bankruptcy and loss of empire.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

Well at least with the US forces in your country you can still voice your opinion without getting a knock on the door afterwards.

Political prosecutions in Germany (not guilty according to the UN charta of human rights, article 19):

1994
5.562 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

1995
6.555 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

1996
7.585 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

1997
10.257 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

1998
9.549 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

1999
8.651 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

2000
13.863 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

2001
8.874 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

2002
9.807 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

2003
9.295 Menschen strafverfolgt, unschuldig gemäß UN-Menschenrechts-Charta, Art. 19

http://globalfire.tv/nj/05de/verfolg...terjochung.htm

[Eriugena]

Well at least with the US forces in your country you can still voice your opinion without getting a knock on the door afterwards.

Mr Biggles, that was a remarkably silly comment to make.

[Aeternitas]

Well at least with the US forces in your country you can still voice your opinion without getting a knock on the door afterwards.

You like to joke, I see.

Do you know how many British civilians died through German bombing here ? You probably dont care, if i was to have a go at you for the German`s bombing of British cities and the thousands who died in that what could you reply with ?, perhaps "It was war" ?

No, I would not. I would respect those victims. As I said many times before, I do not agree with everything that happened in NS Germany or during the war but the Anglo-Americans however, do not respect the memory of the the people that died in Dresden.

I personally dont see much sinister with this quote at all, Germany was getting strong, and he recognised the danger in sitting back, we can debate it all we want now, but at the time Germany was rearming and looking to expand.

As for your claims, Germany hardly even began rearming when Churchill stated what I cited. Looking to expand? That's actually interesting having in matter the story of the annexation of the Sudetenland, and that was after he made that statement as well.

Of course nothing i say about Churchill will mean anything really, because it will just sound like me defending him which your expect from a Brit anyway, just like i expect you to defend Germany and make Churchill out to be an evil doer, he wasnt an angel no, but compared to Hitler he was a damn sight better.

Churchill was a pig and you don't have to defend pigs. I do not defend people just because they are German. There are plenty of German pigs around, you know. Of course, this Churchill issue is getting kind of old for me, I have mentioned it many many times, but here goes... Compared to Hitler your "hero" was much worse, he was a traitor who originally spoke againt communism but soonafter started kissing Russian butt, embraced Stalin and called him affectionally "uncle Joe". He also provided support for Communist Yugoslavia and Tito, was friends with a Jew, Nathaniel Rothchild and with a Jew supporter, Roosevelt. After the war he supported the slaughtering and expulsion of millions of Germans from their homelands. He was pretty undecided when it came to politics as well, leaving the Conservatives in order to join the Liberal Party and then, when they were in decline, he ran back to the Conservatives. Oh how convenient.

Well Churchill made a pact with Stalin, that's right, but before him Hitler did, untill the invasion of Russia, then Stalin prefered Churchill as a friend

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Reinhold Elstner

Mr Biggles, that was a remarkably silly comment to make.

Well i dont know, im against the war in Iraq which is a primarily American thing, i havent been arrested for it, in the former Soviet Union i might of .

You call Churchill a liar,a war-monger & a pig so its pretty obvious you have some discomfort over the man, i dont believe ive said anything derogatory towards Hitler, the moment i saw those insults towards Churchill i sort of lost interest in your argument.

Churchill was buddies with "uncle-joe" because we both had the same enemy, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", he did say once "If Hitler invaded hell id be hard pressed not to make an alliance with the devil".

Really every time i look over this, it just looks more and more like disgruntled hitbacks, the fact its 3 people whose countries have both suffered from the British telling me how bad Britains wartime leader is, is to expected to really believe what they are saying without grinning.

As for you BM, you say your NS yet say you wouldnt mind living under Communism, the staunch opposite and enemy of NS, every one of your posts just makes it sound more and more the disgruntled whining it really is, hey if Britain had lost id be the same so dont worry .

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

the moment i saw those insults towards Churchill i sort of lost interest in your argument.

Mr Biggles, that was a remarkably silly comment to make.

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

Mr Biggles, that was a remarkably silly comment to make.

Zyklop, that was a remarkably silly thing to say.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

Zyklop, that was a remarkably silly thing to say.

For a 18 year old guy you are quite immature I have to say. Someone like you already could be sent to war.

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

For a 18 year old guy you are quite immature I have to say. Someone like you already could be sent to war.

One can only imagine the kinds of idiocies those soliders in Iraq believe.

[Aeternitas]

As for you BM, you say your NS yet say you wouldnt mind living under Communism, the staunch opposite and enemy of NS, every one of your posts just makes it sound more and more the disgruntled whining it really is, hey if Britain had lost id be the same so dont worry .

Biggles, did you even read my post properly? I said that if I had to choose between Communism and Americanism, I'd choose the former. Between two bads, I choose the least bad. The truth is there was more culture under a Communist regime than under the pathetic yankee influence. The conclusion you came to, however, was a very narrow-minded thing to say.

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

Well i dont know, im against the war in Iraq which is a primarily American thing, i havent been arrested for it, in the former Soviet Union i might of .

Why are you against the war in Iraq?

You call Churchill a liar,a war-monger & a pig so its pretty obvious you have some discomfort over the man, i dont believe ive said anything derogatory towards Hitler, the moment i saw those insults towards Churchill i sort of lost interest in your argument.

You seem to take everything very personally. You are not Churchill. There is a lot of myth surrounding Churchill but with very little digging you will discover what he was really made of: crap. His whole career was littered with disasters and brutality - Gallipoli for example. Fresh from destroying thousands of Australian and New Zealanders lives he moved on to wreak havoc in the Middle East. Did you know he gassed the Kurds and Iraqis? That's right, the newly formed air force was used to drop poison gas on Iraqi civilians in 1919 [Air Power and Colonial Control: The Royal Air Force 1919-1939 by David E. Omissi Manchester Univ Pr (December 1, 1990)]. You m,ight like to check out what he did to the Cossacks after the war: Operation Keelhaul. He was a man who formed a hatred of Germany early on and dedicated his political career to destroying it even if it meant destroying Britain - which he did. You cannot run from the facts of this man's life. He was a disaster for Britain first and foremost as well as for the world.

Churchill was buddies with "uncle-joe" because we both had the same enemy, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", he