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Old Monday, June 2nd, 2008
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Default Egalitarianism?

Some nationalist ideologies tend to embrace a somewhat egalitarian view of their respective nations, idolizing and idealizing all those who belong to their nation, indiscriminately - without paying any heed to the national shortcomings, or even praising them. It is sometimes expressed in an idealization of an "average man", who in reality does not exist, but is only a "type of man", with whom many people of the nation in question could identify themselves. This kind of attitude inevitably leads to some kind of populism and/or socialism, to the temptation to level all differences among people, whereby the individuals which stand above the average are inevitably put down. It may lead to a generalized mediocrity and deterioration of cultural and educational standards, to the detriment of the nation. In fact, all of this is very much present in modern mass-societies, but some nationalists also embrace similar views, with the only difference that they would like to apply the egalitarian standards only to those belongning to their ethno-national group.

Do you think that egalitarianism is a good thing? I think not.
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Old Monday, June 2nd, 2008
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

It's a complex issue. I'm rather against it, taken to it's extreme it means dumbing down all people to a level of a retard. This has however nothing to do with class or any such materialistic concepts, it's simply about people who are capable, smart, intelligent and focused shouldn't be put on the level of 'equality'. It hasn't got much to do with (formal) education either, given the fact that educational system of today is dumbing individuals into puppets of the modern world.

Btw, I don't believe this thread belongs to lowbrow section, I think you should move it somewhere else.
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
Some nationalist ideologies tend to embrace a somewhat egalitarian view of their respective nations, idolizing and idealizing all those who belong to their nation, indiscriminately - without paying any heed to the national shortcomings, or even praising them. It is sometimes expressed in an idealization of an "average man", who in reality does not exist, but is only a "type of man", with whom many people of the nation in question could identify themselves. This kind of attitude inevitably leads to some kind of populism and/or socialism, to the temptation to level all differences among people, whereby the individuals which stand above the average are inevitably put down. It may lead to a generalized mediocrity and deterioration of cultural and educational standards, to the detriment of the nation. In fact, all of this is very much present in modern mass-societies, but some nationalists also embrace similar views, with the only difference that they would like to apply the egalitarian standards only to those belongning to their ethno-national group.

Do you think that egalitarianism is a good thing? I think not.
Do you really need to ask?
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

I'm of two minds on this question; I dislike both self-styled elitists and the current culture which seems to wallow in vulgarity. I would like to see a revival of the Equestrian class which sits between the Patricians and the Plebeians.

We currently have a globalist patrician class who allow the growing plebeian class to indulge in whatever crass behaviour they can think of, as long as it doesn't interfere with the projects of the governing class. What we lack is an equestrian class who is able to force national loyalty on the elites and self-discipline on the underclass.
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

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Originally Posted by Breogan View Post
Do you really need to ask?
Yes, because an interesting discussion can grow out of this. The principle of egalitarianism is connected with many other societal issues, like the preference for this or that political system (democracy or something else), education etc. Also the alternatives to egalitarianism should be weighed...

G.K. Chesterton was one of the great apostles of egalitarianism, a thing he proudly enounced. While I agree with him in many other issues, in this one I don't. He may be excused though by the fact that he lived in England at times when social injustice there was at appalling levels. However, I think he mistook some level of social justice (which there must be) with egalitarianism, that is, with an almost metaphysical outlook that all people need to be absolutely equal in just about everything. Not in a Marxist sense, because he was not a Marxist.
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

There is a variant of this in Ireland, namely a media habit of tying international personalities to Ireland through their genealogy. Examples are Che Guevara, Mohammed Ali (the boxer), and recently both McCain and Obama.

Quote:
US Presidential hopeful Barack Obama can now count himself as one of the millions of Americans with Irish heritage. Research by the genealogy website Ancestry.co.uk reveals that Mr Obama's great great great grandfather was born in Ireland, although it is not yet known where.
This remote link is meant to suggest a blood tie. So yes, it's egalitarian, but also superficial.
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
...

G.K. Chesterton was one of the great apostles of egalitarianism, a thing he proudly enounced. While I agree with him in many other issues, in this one I don't. He may be excused though by the fact that he lived in England at times when social injustice there was at appalling levels. However, I think he mistook some level of social justice (which there must be) with egalitarianism, that is, with an almost metaphysical outlook that all people need to be absolutely equal in just about everything. Not in a Marxist sense, because he was not a Marxist.
Here is an interesting critique of G.K. Chesterton by George Orwell in his essay, The Christian Reformers.Orwell discusses Chesterton's populism:

Quote:
Finally - and in a way this is the most interesting group - there are those who admit the injustice of present-day society and are ready for drastic changes but reject Socialism and, by implication, industrialism. As long ago as 1911 Hilaire Belloc wrote his very prescient book The Servile State, in which he foretold that capitalist society would soon degenerate into something resembling what afterwards came to be called Fascism.

Belloc's remedy was the splitting-up of large property and a return to a peasant proprietorship. Belloc's friend, G. K. Chesterton, made this idea the basis of a political movement which he called Distributism. Chesterton, a convert to Catholicism, had the mental background of a nineteenth *century radical, and his desire for a simpler form of society was combined with an almost mystical belief in democracy and the virtues of the common man.

His movement never gained a large following, and after his death a few of his disciples drifted into the British Union of Fascists, while others looked for a remedy in currency reform. Nevertheless, his doctrines reappear, essentially unchanged, in T. S. Eliot's idea of a Christian society." The significance of Chesterton is that he expresses in a simplified - indeed, a caricatured - form, certain tendencies that exist in every Christian reformer.

The specifically Christian virtues are likeliest to flourish in small com*munities, where life is simple and the family is a natural unit. Therefore the tug of Christian thought, even in those who admit the necessity for planning and centralised ownership, is always away from a highly com*plex, luxurious society, and towards the mediaeval village. Even a writer like Professor Macmurray, who can accept Russian Communism almost without reservations, wants people to live in what he calls `a workaday world', where life will not be too easy.

Mediaevalism, as it is presented by Chesterton, or even by Eliot, is not serious politics. It is merely a symptom of the malaise which any sensitive person feels before the spectacle of machine civilisation.

But Christian thinkers who are more realistic than Chesterton still have to face an unsolved problem. They claim, rightly, that if our civilisation does not regenerate itself morally it is likely to perish - and they may be right in adding that, at least in Europe, its moral code must be based on Christian principles. But the Christian religion includes, as an integral part of itself, doctrines which large numbers of people can no longer be brought to accept.
And from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism :

Quote:
Chesterton was a writer of considerable talent who chose to suppress both his sensibilities and his intellectual honesty in the cause of Roman Catholic propaganda. During the last twenty years or so of his life, his entire output was in reality an endless repetition of the same thing, under its laboured cleverness as simple and boring as `Great is Diana of the Ephesians'. Every book that he wrote, every paragraph, every sentence, every incident in every story, every scrap of dialogue, had to demonstrate beyond possibility of mistake the superiority of the Catholic over the Protestant or the pagan. But Chesterton was not content to think of this superiority as merely intellectual or spiritual: it had to be translated into terms of national prestige and military power, which entailed an ignorant idealisation of the Latin countries, especially France. Chesterton had not lived long in France, and his picture of it - as a land of Catholic peasants incessantly singing the Marseillaise over glasses of red wine - had about as much relation to reality as Chu Chin Chow has to every-day life in Baghdad. And with this went not only an enormous over-estimation of French military power (both before and after 1914-18 he maintained that France, by itself, was stronger than Germany), but a silly and vulgar glorification of the actual process of war. Chesterton's battle poems, such as Lepanto or The Ballad of Saint Barbara, make The Charge of the Light Brigade read like a pacifist tract: they are perhaps the most tawdry bits of bombast to be found in our language. The interesting thing is that had the romantic rubbish which he habitually wrote about France and the French army been written by somebody else about Britain and the British army, he would have been the first to jeer. In home politics he was a Little Englander, a true hater of jingoism and imperialism, and according to his lights a true friend of democracy. Yet when he looked outwards into the international field, he could forsake his principles without even noticing that he was doing so. Thus, his almost mystical belief in the virtues of democracy did not prevent him from admiring Mussolini. Mussolini had destroyed the representative government and the freedom of the press for which Chesterton had struggled so hard at home, but Mussolini was an Italian and had made Italy strong, and that settled the matter. Nor did Chesterton ever find a word to say against imperialism and the conquest of coloured races when they were practised by Italians or Frenchmen. His hold on reality, his literary taste, and even to some extent his moral sense, were dislocated as soon as his nationalistic loyalties were involved.
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

I'm personally against Egalitarianism.
It weakens universal pride by insisting everyone is the same...or at least thats my interpretation.

Society should be built upon everyone working to raise themselves by themselves not having others raising themselves..thats what Egalitarianism is to me.
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

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Originally Posted by Errigal View Post
Here is an interesting critique of G.K. Chesterton by George Orwell in his essay, The Christian Reformers.Orwell discusses Chesterton's populism:

And from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism :
The first of these two critiques is complete crap, because he attacks precisely the good points made by Chesterton, whilst the second one is much more valid.

What would be possibly wrong with peasant proprietorship?
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

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Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
The first of these two critiques is complete crap, because he attacks precisely the good points made by Chesterton, whilst the second one is much more valid.

What would be possibly wrong with peasant proprietorship?
I don't want to be a peasant, that's what's wrong with Chesteron's idea of peasant proprietorship. I think Orwell's critique is valid: "Mediaevalism, as it is presented by Chesterton, or even by Eliot, is not serious politics. It is merely a symptom of the malaise which any sensitive person feels before the spectacle of machine civilisation." Chesterton imagines a world in which the simple peasantry leave politics and the affairs of state to people like him. I would not want to be a peasant in such a culture and I would not want to be part of a class who governs by conclave and conspiracy.
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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errigal View Post
I don't want to be a peasant, that's what's wrong with Chesteron's idea of peasant proprietorship. I think Orwell's critique is valid: "Mediaevalism, as it is presented by Chesterton, or even by Eliot, is not serious politics. It is merely a symptom of the malaise which any sensitive person feels before the spectacle of machine civilisation." Chesterton imagines a world in which the simple peasantry leave politics and the affairs of state to people like him. I would not want to be a peasant in such a culture and I would not want to be part of a class who governs by conclave and conspiracy.
If you don't want to be a peasant, it is fine. But the thrust of the matter is that the modern way of life destroyed the small estate (which does not equal always the "peasantry"), small proprietorship. If you don't want it, what's the point in stopping others to live so, if they wish?

The likes of Orwell and his fellow Marxists brought about the current state of modern society, a mass-society marked by the spirit of egalitarianism, ending in vulgarity and dissolution. The egalitarianism is all-pervading excluding, only the small percentage of those belonging to the caste which pulls the strings behind the scenes.

I see the small proprietorship as preferable to wage-slavery and Lumpenproletariat of today. Such a system would maybe be less conducive to egalitarianism of the type we have today.

I just wanted to say that I rejected Chesterton's fascination, bordering on idolization, with democracy and voting, but I see at the same time many advanatges in his principle of small proprietorship.

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Default Re: Egalitarianism?

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Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
If you don't want to be a peasant, it is fine. But the thrust of the matter is that the modern way of life destroyed the small estate (which does not equal always the "peasantry"), small proprietorship. If you don't want it, what's the point in stopping others to live so, if they wish?
I don't want to be a peasant in the society imagined by G.K. Chesterton. I am strongly in favour of small estates and land ownership by as large a percentage of the population as possible and I also favour the full or partial ownership of factories, airlines, retail chains, etc by the workers. I simply don't want a mass of noble but ignorant peasants putting their little "Xes" on ballot papers while the self-described wise men meet to make the real decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
The likes of Orwell and his fellow Marxists brought about the current state of modern society, a mass-society marked by the spirit of egalitarianism, ending in vulgarity and dissolution. The egalitarianism is all-pervading excluding, only the small percentage of those belonging to the caste which pulls the strings behind the scenes.
I don't think that is an accurate summary of Orwell's politics. I'll put together my own and post it in this thread tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marulus View Post
I see the small proprietorship as preferable to wage-slavery and Lumpenproletariat of today. Such a system would maybe be less conducive to egalitarianism of the type we have today.

I just wanted to say that I rejected Chesterton's fascination, bordering on idolization, with democracy and voting, but I see at the same time many advanatges in his principle of small proprietorship.
I agree.
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