To Serbian users of Stirpes, and to your compatriots...

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Aptrgangr

I support the ideals of the national-wing of the old IRA, not the Marxist wing.

So you do support that it is Irish land, not British?

Are Albanians alien to Kosovo? I do not have evidence for that, I do not know when Serbs where a majority there, but what I know is they themselves settled there, coming from the north.

They're as much alien to Kosovo as British are to Ireland.

It is the numbers my dear, it is.

No it's not, it's also about the history and the connection between the land and the people.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by M.R.

They're as much alien to Kosovo as British are to Ireland.

The colonisation of Kosovo by the Albanians begun in the 15th century, with the Ottomans. And they always lived near the Kosovo border, and I guess some of them in the southern parts. Or? The point is that I agree Kosovo is Serbian land. But claiming Kososvo is completly alien to Albanians, is nonsense.

It's Serbias fault they've lost their lands. Like Aptrgangr said... wrong politics. Sooner or later they would have lost Kosovo, also without the intervention of the US, if their usual methods stayed the same.

No it's not, it's also about the history and the connection between the land and the people.

You can see it that way, why not. But what to you want to imply? Do you believe Serbians should fight for Kosovo, pay with blood? Excuse me, but anyone who wants, can take a better look at Balkan history, and it taught us that there are no apsolute winners in wars. All they would accomplish is lose many human lifes, and catapult them selfs a few decades backwards.

No, they sholuld not leave Kosovo to be Albanian, but living continuously in the past, IMO, isn't worthy all the territories in the world. Look at the future, search for new solution. That's my opinion.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Vincent

The colonisation of Kosovo by the Albanians begun in the 15th century

The mainstream history says that the mass-settlement of Kosovo by Albanians started in the second half of 17th century, especially after the Great Turkish War (1683-1699) intiated by Kara Mustafa's expedition against Austria and the unsuccessful siege of Vienna.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Marulus

The mainstream history says that the mass-settlement of Kosovo by Albanians started in the second half of 17th century, especially after the Great Turkish War (1683-1699) intiated by Kara Mustafa's expedition against Austria and the unsuccessful siege of Vienna.

Yes? I'm not very much interested in all this Kosovo issue, so I didn't read many sources. In one was mention that it began in the 15th century (maybe a minor colonisation?).

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Vincent

The colonisation of Kosovo by the Albanians begun in the 15th century, with the Ottomans. And they always lived near the Kosovo border, and I guess some of them in the southern parts. Or? The point is that I agree Kosovo is Serbian land. But claiming Kososvo is completly alien to Albanians, is nonsense.

In the 1455 cadastrial record their were some 250 Albanians in a population of 75,000 in Kosovo. In the late 17th century migrations of Serbs begin due to Serrb support to the Habsburg in war, it is only in the 18th century that large numbers of Albanians start settling in Kosovo. In the 19th century, Joseph Muller estimates the Serb population at 60%, Peter Kukulj an Austrian official puts the Serb population at 64%. It is after Serbia achieves independence in 1876 that expulsions occur and that the demographic becomes 47.88% Albanian to 43.7% Serb in 1899.

After the boundary is determined between Albania and Kosovo. Serbs are once again in the majority. During WWII, 80,000-100,000 are expelled from Albanian and a relatively equal number of Albanians settle in Kosovo. Sucvh that after the war Albanians compromise a more then 60% majority.

So basically. It seem's that Albanians only started settling in large numbers in the 18th century and after Serbia's independence from the Ottomans was secured. Not in the 15th century as you claim.

No, they sholuld not leave Kosovo to be Albanian, but living continuously in the past, IMO, isn't worthy all the territories in the world. Look at the future, search for new solution. That's my opinion.

Yes. Look to the future. What do you see. Well, I see Albanians crossing the border (which they've started doing). They are increasing their numbers in eastern Serbia, a large number already want to annex parts of Montenegro and parts of FYROM.

It seem's that if the Albanians are given what they want, they will demand more. So the answer is to give them nothing anfd have them concentrate on one territory.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Vincent

But claiming Kososvo is completly alien to Albanians, is nonsense.

I never said that. Read again what I wrote.

You can see it that way, why not. But what to you want to imply? Do you believe Serbians should fight for Kosovo, pay with blood? Excuse me, but anyone who wants, can take a better look at Balkan history, and it taught us that there are no apsolute winners in wars. All they would accomplish is lose many human lifes, and catapult them selfs a few decades backwards.

The point it that it's Serbian land. Serbs have the right to claim that land, whether they want to fight for that land or not is their choice, though.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

So basically. It seem's that Albanians only started settling in large numbers in the 18th century and after Serbia's independence from the Ottomans was secured. Not in the 15th century as you claim.

Nah. What I said (and what you proved your self as partly right) is:

The colonisation of Kosovo by the Albanians begun in the 15th century, with the Ottomans

I didn't mention any large numbers of them at that time, as you can see

Originally Posted by Crvena Zvezda

Yes. Look to the future. What do you see. Well, I see Albanians crossing the border (which they've started doing). They are increasing their numbers in eastern Serbia, a large number already want to annex parts of Montenegro and parts of FYROM.

It seem's that if the Albanians are given what they want, they will demand more. So the answer is to give them nothing anfd have them concentrate on one territory.

Yes, and that's also why I said:

No, they sholuld not leave Kosovo to be Albanian

... and:

Like Aptrgangr said... wrong politics

Combine my two sentences, and you will realise, I never said Serbs should leave Albanians, and don't mind them. Au contraire, I support Serbian intervention against them. All I said is that you simply have to change your tactics, for your own sake, and a better future.

---------------------------------------

Read my posts more carefully

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Vincent

The colonisation of Kosovo by the Albanians begun in the 15th century, with the Ottomans. And they always lived near the Kosovo border, and I guess some of them in the southern parts. Or? The point is that I agree Kosovo is Serbian land. But claiming Kososvo is completly alien to Albanians, is nonsense.

If the albanisation began in the 15th century, or in the 17th century, it doesn't change the fact that that's Serbian territory to me.

The islamisation of Spain began in the 8th century and until the 15th century all territory taken from Muslims was considered re-conquered. Further, it was not until the 17th century that the expulsion of the last Muslims, the Moriscos, took place.

As a Spaniard, to deny the Serbs their right (and their duty) to Kosovo would be like denying our ancestors their right (and their duty) to Spain.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

If the albanisation began in the 15th century, or in the 17th century, it doesn't change the fact that that's Serbian territory to me.

The islamisation of Spain began in the 8th century and until the 15th century all territory taken from Muslims was considered re-conquered. Further, it was not until the 17th century that the expulsion of the last Muslims, the Moriscos, took place.

As a Spaniard, to deny the Serbs their right (and their duty) to Kosovo would be like denying our ancestors their right (and their duty) to Spain.

I didn't deny the Serbs rights on Kosovo and Metohia in any of my posts.

My intention was to state that Albanians aren't that alien to Kosovo as M.R. said, wich does not mean it belongs to them.

But being this the 21st century, and knowing the Serbs extremlly good, I still think war or any type of violence is a bad solution for them. Won't bring Kosovo back, won't do Serbia any good. They have to change it.

[Ostrogorski]

Kosovo and Metohia is Serbian by our historical and ownership right. End of discussion. As far as I'm concerned (and majority of Serbs) there could be zillions and zillions of Shiptars there, that cannot change that fact!

Albanians were absolutely never majority in Kosovo and Metohia. Historically there was never more than 50% of Shiptars there. It is even doubtful whether they ever came close to 50% of the whole population. Albanians simply boycotted all official national censuses is ex Yugoslavia. Most of them never had any IDs nor citizenships of our former country. These are all facts.

Vast majority of them were simply illegal immigrants. The government of former Yugoslavia simply tolerated that because of Tito-Hoxha friendship. Tito was hoping that Albania would enter the union, but luckily for us Serbs it didn't happened. Tito also forbade a lot of Serbs that have been expelled by Albanian axis forces during the ww2 to come back home. Communist government also seized land of Serbian orthodox Church, mostly monastery property. Metohia comes from the Greek word Metoh, which means monastery property, and this area was known in middle ages for that.

They became majority in Kosovo only in 1999 after NATO bombing of Serbia, when some 200.000 Albanians illegally crossed the border and settled in Serbia by committing ethnic cleansing of Serbian population. Albanians simply forced Serbs to leave their homes, and then they've settled in Serbian houses. Some houses were burned to ensure that Serbs don't come back.

When it comes to the right of ownership, the republic of Serbia, as well as Serbian orthodox Church, owns 2/3 of the complete land there. The rest is private property. Most of Albanians do not have ownership papers at all.

The religious importance of Kosovo and Metohia is of invaluable significance to us Serbs. To put it short, so you can all have a clear view, Kosovo means to us, as Jerusalem means to Jews and Mecca to Muslims. I hope you all get the point now.


So, Albanians became majority there by pure force, backed by NATO/USA and other enemies of Christianity and Europe. Therefore Serbs cannot and will not recognize, EVER, the so called "de facto" situation that western countries insist on!!!

They've came here illegally, the republic of Serbia has legal right to deport them all back to Albania. Unfortunately the so called "international community" is preventing us in doing our legal job, and they illegally support this artificial state.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Vincent

I didn't deny the Serbs rights on Kosovo and Metohia in any of my posts.

My intention was to state that Albanians aren't that alien to Kosovo as M.R. said, wich does not mean it belongs to them.

I didn't want to say that Albanians are completly alien to Kosovo, but that it's a similar situation like in northern Ireland. Muslims aren't alien to Spain as well, as they invaded Spain and ruled that country for centuries - and are invading Spain once again now, only in a different way.

Anyway, I'm also tired talking about Kosovo just like you, I got headache when I hear the name 'Kosovo' since all the talk in Europe is about this issue. I said what I had to say about this issue, I'm probably leaving all Kosovo related threads for some time now.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by M.R.

So you do support that it is Irish land, not British?

It is Ireland, I say it is not legal part of today's Republic like it's no legal part of the UK. Both are a pestilence. Still I have to see the fact most inhabitants of Northern Ireland do not wish to be part of the Irish Republic, I have no desire to bomb them into subjugation; they themselves must wake up and start to think about a solution.

Originally Posted by M.R.

They're as much alien to Kosovo as British are to Ireland.

Still British Lords rule over Northern Ireland and Serbs lost Kosovo to Albanians, it's not about any personal favouritism, it's about how we deal with these facts.
Maybe Serbia will start a military campaign one day, after EU forces withdrew, I do not know, but what I know Albanians there won't react peacefully and get help from Muslim countries.

Originally Posted by M.R.

No it's not, it's also about the history and the connection between the land and the people.

Serbs are a minority of 10% in an area they consider as very important for themselves. It does not appear to me they were keen to claim it with demographic facts. If they want to die for that it is their business.

[agamemnon]

Well their flag is the Byzantine war flag.....

Originally Posted by Mynydd

There are some Christian Albanians, or at least nominally Christian. But not anything as 'plenty' as far as I know.

It doesn't matter. Your mistake here is that you are looking at the issue from a wrong point of view. It is not if they go to the church or if they to the mosque. Or if they drink alcohol or they abstain. We are talking of culture. We are not Americans, for God's sake. There is much more to culture than a few external and modern signs, which can be common or opposed through all peoples in the world.

Forget the word Muslim for a moment. Albanians are Ottomans. Do you think that all Turks are religious Muslims? Forget it. And they drink just as well. And many look European, or they are even Europid or in much part. And in the middle classes in Western Turkey they have adopted many external signs of so-called "Western", that makes them look as more "European" than Albanians. But they are not. They are Ottomans.