Nationalism and/or patriotism?

[Amadis]

I would like to hear what people have to say.I realize its a bit odd to ask since after all "Stripes" is for Europeans who are Nationalist.I'll add my comments later.... untill then food for thought

"Patriotism means to stand by the country.* It does NOT mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country.* It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country.* It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), 26th President of the United States (1901-1909)

[Perun]

Depends on how you define "patriotism" and "nationalism". Belloc in Survivals and New Arrivals condemns "nationalism", that is exaggerated glorification of the nation as an end in itself but praises "patriotism" declaring it a necessary feeling for any society to succeed.

Then often the terms use are "Jingoism" or "Chauvenism" to express excessive nationalism or blind devotion to the state. Its more about definitions than anything else.

[Ederico]

According to my own conception and my dictionary of Politics it is such:

Patriotism is a spirit that permeates an individual or a Nation - PATRIA!
Nationalism is the actual political expression of the Patriotic spirit - Viva n-Nazionalismu!

Therefore, according to what I define as Patriotism and Nationalism, both are intertwined, the former is a necessity for the second, the second is a necessity for the Nation.

As Perun perfectly said, "its more about definitions than anything else". I concur and I stand by my own definitions.

[Il Legionario]

I have to agree with Ederico here. It ultimately depends on how you define them.

[Aeternitas]

I'd also have to agree. An example of how definitions can confuse one is that of the "nation" - many equate it with "state'.

[eufrenio]

Hello to everybody, this is my first post here!
That´s a pretty good question, Amadis...
How can a patriot or a nationalist (I can´t see the difference between these two terms) , whether Greek or Spanish or German, be a European patriot or nationalist? European internationalist would make more sense.
Patriotism is loyalty for one´s nation, first and foremost. What unites us Europeans is a common past, a common religion, shared values and remote kinship. Possibly common interests as well in politics and economics.
We share some common ground, but we do not share the same country or polity.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by eufrenio

Hello to everybody, this is my first post here!
That´s a pretty good question, Amadis...
How can a patriot or a nationalist (I can´t see the difference between these two terms) , whether Greek or Spanish or German, be a European patriot or nationalist? European internationalist would make more sense.
Patriotism is loyalty for one´s nation, first and foremost. What unites us Europeans is a common past, a common religion, shared values and remote kinship. Possibly common interests as well in politics and economics.
We share some common ground, but we do not share the same country or polity.

Nice to have you around, Eufrenio.

I won't discuss the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism. The line that divides both is somehow blurred and as Perun and Ederico have said it may depend on how you define it. The context and the location in which you use them can also mark a difference.

By European Nationalism I doubt that many (if any) here understand the support of an amorphous and homogeneous nation-state of Europe. The defense and the desire for preservation of each of our individual nations is a battle in the war to defend and to preserve Europe as a whole. Europe is a unique and precious, but complex biosphera. The very name of Europe evokes the freedom and individuality of each one of its nations. No one nation of Europe can stand alone and survive this nightmare that threatens us all. Europe has already lost part of its biosphera in the past, and while our own national survivals concern us on an individual basis, the survival of the other nations are of our concern too. So either we learn to stick together through this madness or we perish individually. So European Nationalism is right today so long as it stays within these limits.

On a related note, the use of the concept of nation and its relation to state and people varies from region to region. Thus, the concept of a Hispanic Nation and the form it should take will differ to a lesser or greater extent to that of a Germanic Nation, or a Slavic Nation. There is no one common magic solution that fits all. As I've said, Europe is a very complex biosphera.

Personally, as a Spaniard, many times I find that the boundaries and limits imposed for a concept of nation are narrow and insufficient in its definition. But this is another story.

[Perun]

Originally Posted by Il Legionario

I have to agree with Ederico here. It ultimately depends on how you define them.

Actually that was me who first brought up the issue of definitions.

Anyways.....what Ederico Figallo describes is also commonly defined as Cultural nationalism vs. Political nationalism. So yes, its gets very confusing when many words mean the same thing.

[Phlegethon]

A sound knowledge of Latin helps a lot. If you know Latin you are not dependent on the idiotic definitions of such terms by yankees and Britons.

[Anarch]

I choose patriotism.

[Biggles]

My view of Patriotism is following your country even when it is wrong, theirs more to it then that yes but ive seen many "idiotic definitions" of it so it would be silly calling myself a Patriot when i dont fully know what it stands for.

[FadeTheButcher]

Originally Posted by Phlegethon

A sound knowledge of Latin helps a lot. If you know Latin you are not dependent on the idiotic definitions of such terms by yankees and Britons.

Germany - 0
Great Britain - 2

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Abandon All Hope

Germany - 0
Great Britain - 2

Are you referring to the 2 World Wars ?

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

Are you referring to the 2 World Wars ?

Probably

[Il Legionario]

Originally Posted by Perun

Actually that was me who first brought up the issue of definitions.

Anyways.....what Ederico Figallo describes is also commonly defined as Cultural nationalism vs. Political nationalism. So yes, its gets very confusing when many words mean the same thing.

Ok then I'll give credit where it's due. Let me rephrase:

I have to agree with Perun here. It ultimately depends on how you define them.

(Note the emphasis on your name Hope that makes you feel better )

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Phlegethon

A sound knowledge of Latin helps a lot. If you know Latin you are not dependent on the idiotic definitions of such terms by yankees and Britons.

Natio, -nis f.: pueblo [volk], nation || class, race, sect || [in animals] race, species || goddess of birth ||| -ones -um pl.: gentiles.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Mr Curzon Biggles

Are you referring to the 2 World Wars ?

No. He is trolling and baiting. He has been shunned and can only post within a restricted environment on C.O. (Camara Obscura) and under strict moderation.

He is FadeTheButcher, an Alabaman (somewhere in rural America), whose intention is to create disruption among Europeans and on this forum. More on him later on C.O.

Only a brief note to his trolling. While Britain has been flooded with Jews since early times and Judaism has destroyed much of the British society, and while America's foundation are deeply rooted on Judaism and they are the stunt man of Israel, Germany (and most other nations in Europe) have a historical record for rejecting and fighting Judaism.

So, if you know what I mean by this:

America - No Hope (thus his screen name Abandon All Hope as he would like others to surrender to Judaism too)

Britain - Its only hope is within Europe and its return to being England, not Britain.

Germany - Much hope as with any other European nation where Judaism is not infiltrated down to the bones.

[Aeternitas]

Originally Posted by Abandon All Hope

Germany - 0
Great Britain - 2

Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.