Nationalism and/or patriotism?

[Phlegethon]

Nation is a group of people bonded by blood and a common history (usually common suffering).

A country is an administrative entity that ideally consists of one nation but in 99% of all cases consists of a bunch of rootless people from all over the world, of dozens of races with nothing in common but a rubber stamp in their papers. One could consider WalMart and McDonald's a country, because their employees all from all over the world, have nothing to little in common and work for a supranational entity that has a bigger gross domestic product than most countries in the world.

[Marulus]

Are they sometimes incompatible? If they are, then which one of these two concepts do you prefer and why?

[Theobald]

I have explained my vision of patriotism and nationalism there :

Stirpes Definition of "Nationalism"

Originally Posted by Theobald

- First I think we should refer to "Patrie" (in French, Fatherland), that is "Fathers' land", the heritage we got from our ancestrors (material, spiritual, moral), the soil, the territory, the land. A Patrie is a land where successive human generations have cultivated fields, exploited mines, built houses, castels, universities, roads, factories, law courts, cemeteries, churches and cathedrals.
According to Maurras : "What is a Fatherland ? Fields, walls, towers and houses, churches, cemeteries and tombs . Nothing is more concret." Fatherland is therefore a product of History and a people.

- A Nation can't be defined without this heritage. It is the whole of its heirs, those who were born on this land. A Nation is the living community of the heirs, dead, currently alive or to come. The idea of Nation also implies a community of fate and a solidarity in time and space.
A Fatherland is rather a heritage whereas a Nation is a community of the heirs of this heritage.

Nationalism can't exist without patriotism to me, since it is the political expression of patriotism. I give both a great and equal importance. I would say that patriotism comes from heart, nationalism from mind.

[Galaico]

This is quite a difficult topic as it depends on the definitions of both terms which can be very subjective.

In theory and in my opinion both terms should mean almost the same, as patriotism means love to the fatherland, and if someone really loves his or her fatherland, that person will have a nationalist attitude towards problems such as immigration, labour, economics, etc.

But, nowadays, anyone with a (Liberal-)Conservative ideology will declare himself as a Patriot, if not as a Nationalist or as a Francoist (!), despite the fact they will support privatisations, the EU, and other harmful policies towards their nations.

In my opinion, any true Patriot must be a Nationalist, and the rest is just crap.

[United Faith]

Originally Posted by Theobald

I have explained my vision of patriotism and nationalism there :

Stirpes Definition of "Nationalism"



Nationalism can't exist without patriotism to me, since it is the political expression of patriotism. I give both a great and equal importance. I would say that patriotism comes from heart, nationalism from mind.

I agree there. Ohoy.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Galaico

But, nowadays, anyone with a (Liberal-)Conservative ideology will declare himself as a Patriot, if not as a Nationalist or as a Francoist (!), despite the fact they will support privatisations, the EU, and other harmful policies towards their nations.

In my opinion, any true Patriot must be a Nationalist, and the rest is just crap.

That's debatable.

I know many patriots, who truly loves their Nation and does not want it to disappear, but are being misleaded by so-called "conservative" parties and men like Sarkozy, Berlusconi, Aznar, ... who play the patriotic card and tell them what they want to hear but don't do it. They actually make up a very large part of the population - and probably most of the traditional conservative electorate. That's precisely our task to educate them about politics and nationalism. Any patriot is a potential nationalist.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Theobald

That's debatable.

I know many patriots, who truly loves their Nation and does not want it to disappear, but are being misleaded by so-called "conservative" parties and men like Sarkozy, Berlusconi, Aznar, ... who play the patriotic card and tell them what they want to hear but don't do it. They actually make up a very large part of the population - and probably most of the traditional conservative electorate. That's precisely our task to educate them about politics and nationalism. Any patriot is a potential nationalist.

Yes, they may be Patriotic, but they won't act as true Patriots, doesn't matter if it is because they really support Neo-"Conservativism" or because they're too blind to see what's happening around them.

I agree in that these people must be one of our targets in trying to convince them that Nationalism is our best and unique option, but the real target must be the working class people that have been betrayed by the left wing, those who are forced, due to their low income, to live in hoods infested by the new wave of immigrants, those who lose their jobs because of the cheaper immigrant labour hand, those who have no other option than taking their children to public schools that look more like the UNO than like European schools, etc.

Most Conservative voters have a high income, and are quite comfortable with the Bi-Partidist system, they don't have any of the problems mentioned before, they don't really know what's happening in our countries, so don't expect them to support any nationalist party that might threaten their way of life.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Theobald

I know many patriots, who truly loves their Nation and does not want it to disappear, but are being misleaded by so-called "conservative" parties and men like Sarkozy, Berlusconi, Aznar, ... who play the patriotic card and tell them what they want to hear but don't do it.

Precisely. Here lays the danger with patriotism.

It is in principle a noble feeling and I agree with you that true nationalism cannot exist without patriotism (otherwise nationalism becomes a mere abstraction), but patriotism also has a tendency these days to degenerate into a merely formal loyalty towards the established order or, even less than that, just towards some ceremonies and symbols, like the flag.

So politicians who somehow, through clever marketing, manage to create perception among the citizenry that they are the representatives of "patriotic values", who somehow succeed in making most of the people associate the flag with their faces and appearances, they have the most success among the patriotic voters. Their patriotic rhetoric and gestures mislead the people.

Originally Posted by Theobald

They actually make up a very large part of the population - and probably most of the traditional conservative electorate. That's precisely our task to educate them about politics and nationalism.

It is an enormously demanding and difficult, but at the same time the most important task.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Plethon

Are they sometimes incompatible? If they are, then which one of these two concepts do you prefer and why?

Politicaly speaking, I think that I can be defined as [Breton and French] Nationalist, but not as a patriot (at least in its modern sense).

Because I don't feel any pride to be French anymore, since current France now represent everything I'm against in term of national identity (Jacobin and Universalist), and that the name of this country is associated with the opposite of what I would like it to be.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Politicaly speaking, I think that I can be defined as [Breton and French] Nationalist, but not as a patriot (at least in its modern sense).

Because I don't feel any pride to be French anymore, since current France now represent everything I'm against in term of national identity (Jacobin and Universalist), and that the name of this country is associated with the opposite of what I would like it to be.

If France became de-Jacobinized tomorrow, would you then be a patriot?

[svin]

Nationalism for me.

[Exeter]

I got the impression that Patriotism is a very American concept.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Exeter

I got the impression that Patriotism is a very American concept.

The modern American patriotism is in fact a blind and unquestioning loyalty towards the establishment (with the exception of some mild "constructive" critique); the most primitive adherence to some outward rituals, like the so-called "rallying around the flag"; accepting of the simplistic view of the world where it's only we (the Good) versus them (the Evil).

It's not classical Patriotism.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Plethon

If France became de-Jacobinized tomorrow, would you then be a patriot?

This would be a first step, but the problem is wider : it's the entire ideology of the current French State which is to redefine.

I say this because in France, we have a sort of "Republican Patriotism" which is the glorification of the French nation, not as the representation of an identity or a people, but as an institution and a concept : the Republic and its values, like Univeralism and Egalitarism.

It's the basis of the modern patriotism celebrating a multiethnic "Black-Blanc-Beur" (Black-White-Arab) France, such as during the World Cup of 1998. And of course, I completely disagree with such a definition of patriotism.

[Exeter]

That is why I see it as something dumb and negative. I think American Patriotism has turned into Jingoism. It is indeed dangerous to see everything as black or white.

The American form of Patriotism breeds ignorance. Only a few Americans have the ability to question American foreign politics, such as intellectuals in certain (mainly in the northeast?) American universities. They are called "leftist" and are perceived as unpatrioatic, when in fact in most questions they are politically more right than many centre-right European political parties.

Originally Posted by Plethon

The modern American patriotism is in fact a blind and unquestioning loyalty towards the establishment (with the exception of some mild "constructive" critique); the most primitive adherence to some outward rituals, like the so-called "rallying around the flag"; accepting of the simplistic view of the world where it's only we (the Good) versus them (the Evil).

It's not classical Patriotism.