Nationalism and/or patriotism?

[Perun]

Sobran brings up some interesting points, especially when concerning the Anglo-American context. Patriotism has too often been used to quiet dissent over policies done by the government. Here's some hilarious cartoons that show exactly what I mean

[Perun]

Originally Posted by Ederico Figallo

Good article Perun, however, I differ.

My definitions are derived from other material I read, and is influenced by Maltese Nationalism which was never, and cannot be Imperialistic for obvious reasons. We actually suffered British Imperialism.

Therefore, I do stick to my own definitions.

Well as many scholars on nationalism note: nationalism differs from country to country. So of course nationalism means something different to different people. Some nationalisms place more emphasis on the state, others on the folk, etc. There simply is no single form of nationalism/patriotism and what Sobran explains can easily apply to the Anglo-Saxon cultures.

[Perun]

Not related to patriotism per se, but it does show how delusional the "patriotism" of some can get LOL:

[Amadis]

Perun excellent find.i cant think of anything to add...

Originally Posted by Perun

Well here's an article that will add a new twist to this discussion.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/011016.shtml

Patriotism or Nationalism?
October 16, 2001

[...]

Hitler said he wasn't patriot but a german nationalist, because he didn't want to serve the austro-hungarian state and the habsburg family. So I think there are little diferences between both terms, but they are not exactly the same. Because when you say you are a patriot it may mean that you serve your current state, which is not always the same than nation.

[Hiser]

Patriotism and Nationalism go hand in hand.

nationalism
"loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of nationalnation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups"

patriotism
"love for or devotion to one's country"

To be a nationalist you must be a patriot.

-Hiser

[Aeternitas]

To be a nationalist you must be a patriot.

Utter nonsense.

The easiest way for people to understand the difference between these concepts is to look up their etymology.

You don't have to be a patriot in order to be a nationalist. Being a nationalist means being faitful to your nation, while patriotism means being faitful to your country. These do not always coincide.

[Timo]

In German it is easier to tell from a nation and a country, in english it is not so.
The Word Nation refers to a group of people "who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language" - in German we would use the word Volk. Country usually refers to a territory or region that is tied to a governmental body - in German we would use the word Land. I can be loyal to my people when not being loyal to my government, i.e. country. (or the opposite, which is not the case)

[Gil]

@Timo: perhaps it is easier for nations who are composed of different peoples, meaning "Ein land viele völker" (is that right? my german is nicht so gut after all this years, eehe) while nations who lack that "folk" diversity it's more common to correlate patriotism with nationalism. Personnaly I think nationalism describes dedication to one's people while patriotism describes dedication to the institution known as "Government" (like Bavarian Chick dixit )

Cheers

[Timo]

(you need help with your german genitive cases)

"A country of many peoples"
That can be easily made: "A country of many nations."
A nation need not have a government. The old word in english for a group of people with of common culture (etc.) was Folk. Though after the latinization of the language, the upper echelon of the classes used the word nation (latin based from French) to describe the groups of peoples. Thus Folk and Nation are both synonyms. Whereas Country and Nation have become clouded as almost synonymous in modern english, due to urban and globalization. Country is tied to the land and government, where as nation is tied to the people and culture. The Apaches of America were not a country but a nation.

[Gil]

damn mate, instead of praising me for even knowing a bit of german you go straight to the damn grammatical thingie....no i'm hurt and a flame war will ensue
Well, I said I agree with the definition you proposed, what I also said was that perhaps that is appropriate in cases where one country has many nations/peoples/tribes etc in it, as for example modern day UK (which has welsh, scots, english and irish) and so many others while for example in other countries like Portugal or Italy that notion isn't very approriate because (generally speaking) the vast majority considers themselves to be one people (as a whole) and identify that people with the country.

[Phlegethon]

Seems several folks here have no idea regarding the terminology they use. Pathetic indeed.

[Gil]

@Phlegethon: who are you referring to exactly?

[Perun]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

You don't have to be a patriot in order to be a nationalist. Being a nationalist means being faitful to your nation, while patriotism means being faitful to your country. These do not always coincide.

True, but as I continually stress its a matter of how one defines the terms. And the definitions often differ based on the contexts they arise in. Nationalism/Patriotism takes many forms, and not just because of differences in national cultures.

[Aeternitas]

Originally Posted by Perun

True, but as I continually stress its a matter of how one defines the terms. And the definitions often differ based on the contexts they arise in. Nationalism/Patriotism takes many forms, and not just because of differences in national cultures.

Well then I can define the Earth as being flat to you, that doesn't mean it really has to be so.

[Zyklop]

Update:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?p=11630

[Perun]

ok

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

Well then I can define the Earth as being flat to you, that doesn't mean it really has to be so.

This is a non-sequiter. Im not a scientist, but last time I checked the Earth has had one shape and plus they're not multiple earths(that we know of).

Nations however have taken different forms throughout history and each nation stresses different elements over others. They're are multiple forms of nationalism(political, religious/secular, cultural, etc.). They are also different paradigms from which to approach nationalism and its formation(Primodialism, Perennialism, Modernism, Entho-Symbolism, etc.). There is much complexity to the issue, and nationalism' relationship to patriotism is just one aspect of it.

Understand? I sincerly hope we can avoid trying to mock each other.

[Awar]

Those comics are great. And clearly show why democracy doesn't work too

[etoile noir]

i've missed out on a good chunk of this thread, however this issue was discussed on another forum, and my problem was that i couldn't really make out the difference between nationalism and patriotism.

although Bayerisches Mädchen said that one can exist without the other, and dismissed the alternative as "utter nonsense", the dictionary defines both words thus:

na·tion·al·ism n.
Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

patriotism
n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: nationalism]

personally i don't see the difference, therefore imho one would render the other superfluous.