The 2-Cent Pan-European Integrationist Model

[alyster]

Ok. Then I think Stripes isn't exactly for me. I'm a supporter of eurointegration, while I do understand the value of Estonian language and culture. I'll probably add my 2 cents here and there and probably disagree and then drop out soon, we'll see.

I hope that 'pofo' doesn't stand for pooh folk or something..

PoliticsForum

I see you are curious about history. Is that what you study in the uni?

Yup. Well will, I'm listed there but the lectures haven't started yet. I was thinking of political sience also, but then again lazy as I am I thought I'm beter off with history cause I've already read about it more than politics. The "must read" books in politics are just so boring

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by alyster

Ok. Then I think Stripes isn't exactly for me. I'm a supporter of eurointegration, while I do understand the value of Estonian language and culture. I'll probably add my 2 cents here and there and probably disagree and then drop out soon, we'll see.

Perhaps you should explain your idea of "eurointegration". As is, I can only make a couple of wild guesses.

That we are Nationalists with regards to our individual national/ethnic identities does not mean that we don't support a political identity for Europe.

The ideas of most of our regular and established members evolves around a fruitful coexistance of Nationalism with Europeanism.

Some will be more into the Nationalist side of it, while others more into the Europeanist side. There might even be someone in the extremes of isolationist Nationalism o pan-Europeanism, but both of them are usually rejected by most people here.

Discussion around these issues is most interesting for the members of Stirpes and consequently encouraged.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by alyster

Ok. Then I think Stripes isn't exactly for me. I'm a supporter of eurointegration, while I do understand the value of Estonian language and culture.

Do you mean E.U integration ?

[alyster]

Yes I do mean integration in EU. EU currently is a confederation. It's slow, not united(energy politics, forein politics etc), not powerful etc. I support the idea of European superstate, in time ofcourse not today. But for that one important thing must be created: European identity and we must cross the language barrier. These are more internationalistic idead...

[Menydh]

Well, that's pan-Europeanism and has little to do with an ideal of Europe. For such a macro-identity to exist, the true identities which are the ethnical and national identities must dissappear. That is what the E.U. is slowly achieving.

When you reach that point, you don't have an European identity because what you have achieved is, precisely, the destruction of Europe. A true Europe is not a one macro-identity, but the conjuction of all of the identities of the ethnic and national groups that conform Europe. If you destroy that (and the E.U. is working into that direction), you destroy the very heart and soul of Europe.

Once you've reached that point it doesn't matter if you call it European Union or United States of Europe. Europe is not there anymore, it is just another melting pot like the U.S. of America.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by alyster

Yes I do mean integration in EU. EU currently is a confederation. It's slow, not united(energy politics, forein politics etc), not powerful etc. I support the idea of European superstate, in time ofcourse not today. But for that one important thing must be created: European identity and we must cross the language barrier. These are more internationalistic idead...

It would be wrong to create such an identity because Europe is based on differences. Different languages, different cultures etc.

We had a similar thing several decades ago. The country was called "Yugoslavia" and the artificial identity was called "Yugoslav". The original idea was that all people of the former state embrace this identity, in order to eliminate national barriers. But this was a rotten ideology with no future and there is no doubt that its European version would eventually have the same fate.

It is needless to say that people who accepted this identity were later often despised by their original countrymen.

[alyster]

I told you I dont fit in here.

Macro identity doesn't erase the smaller ones. Take Estonia for example. In southern Estonia they have bit different culture and even the traditional language differs. We once sent a group Neiukõsõ to Eurovision who sung in Võro language, which is spoken in Southern Estonia. I didn't understand a word of the song, I had to look up a translation. So truely good culture and language which is loved by it's people will not be lost in internationalisation. Are indians less indians today in the US? Or are irish less irish? They are americans, yet they are irish, indians, englishmen, russians etc.

However today we can not survive like 5000 years ago, when every tribe was living in their own village. Even European strongest countries can not stand up to the Russian influence with out being a toy of the US or vice-versa. I'm not even talking about the rest(who are majority). EU must be one and strong. Otherwhise there will be no Europe.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by alyster

I told you I dont fit in here.

You are welcome here as far as I'm concerned. Here on Stirpes we don't oppress people with different opinion, but instead we debate and respect the other side.

Macro identity doesn't erase the smaller ones. Take Estonia for example. In southern Estonia they have bit different culture and even the traditional language differs. We once sent a group Neiukõsõ to Eurovision who sung in Võro language, which is spoken in Southern Estonia. I didn't understand a word of the song, I had to look up a translation. So truely good culture and language which is loved by it's people will not be lost in internationalisation. Are indians less indians today in the US? Or are irish less irish? They are americans, yet they are irish, indians, englishmen, russians etc.

Macro identity does not threaten to obliterate smaller ones in short term, but in longer period of time. So it doesn't threaten our identity but the one that our children will one day call their own.

However today we can not survive like 5000 years ago, when every tribe was living in their own village. Even European strongest countries can not stand up to the Russian influence with out being a toy of the US or vice-versa. I'm not even talking about the rest(who are majority). EU must be one and strong. Otherwhise there will be no Europe.

Agreed. We can coexist and cooperate in the united Europe under a common goal. But this has to be done with the respect to other nation's cultural and lingual uniqueness.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by alyster

But for that one important thing must be created: European identity and we must cross the language barrier. These are more internationalistic idead...

Rather naive ideas, I'm afraid...

[Loorberitega Pärjatu]

Until small nations' will to decide there interior and exterior businesses is called separatism there will be bitterness, hatred and terrorism. We were not germanized because the Germans thought we were too stupid for learning German, we were not russianized because we had German culture and noblemen, are we now americanized? I don't think so, we'll manage! Europe is OK, but what worries a Portuguese and an Estonian about - so different problems! Beginning with weather and finishing with politics.

[alyster]

You are right about the difference of interests. Portugal will probably work more towards Latin-America and we can't blame them. Many countries there are well developing and are important markets for the future. However in our interest is harder politics on Russia. Portugal will not go along with that sadly. They think they can "smoothen relations" by letting this madman KGB officer smash Russian democracy. However these are quite small problems. The big issues are behind us now - we've united the eternal enemies France and Germany and taken along into a confederation a country which used to rule most of the world - the British Empire. Well not much is left of the empire BTW Barosso few days ago called EU an empire. Well we'll live and see. The more west understands about Russian failing democracy, the more united EU's forgein politics will be. However the energy question is still a problem. Schröder demonstrated it so nicely how EU's biggest member state won't give a fuck about the EU, when the chancellor's own interest are in the game. This winter I asked Mr. Kelam(a MEP) about the energy politics and he wasn't too positive about it. Atlist he promised there had been some small progress, that we're not at the same level as few years ago. Well we'll live and see. However Europe must get united, more than ever. We just have to invest more to our cultural funds to hold each nation's identity alive. And which won't survive, isn't probably worth saving because if its people abandon it, then it can't have a future.

I don't think the Yugoslavian example will work for long term show case of macro identity. Its goal was to work in another way. However lets take some other examples: Geat Britain for one. I've never seen more pround nation that scots. Are they not britons? They sure aren't Englishmen! A funny story comes to mind with it. UK's ambassador to Estonia in early 1990s went to one meeting. One man in his speech called him a fine englishman or something like that, anyway english. The ambassdor was actually scotish and went to have a speech after that, calling Estonians Russians Nicely done by him, wasn't it? We can look at other empires also. Estonians have survived the russophication in Russian Empire and in Soviet Union. No matter that Estonians as a nation were declared as enemies of soviets in 1938, we still were part of the friendly soviet family as "equal citizens" for almost 50 years.

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by alyster

I told you I dont fit in here.
...
However today we can not survive like 5000 years ago, when every tribe was living in their own village. Even European strongest countries can not stand up to the Russian influence with out being a toy of the US or vice-versa. I'm not even talking about the rest(who are majority). EU must be one and strong. Otherwhise there will be no Europe.

I agree totally with you...

[Menydh]

Right then, which model of Europe would you two propose?

[alyster]

Federal for a start. Important things can be decided on federation level, giving EU the strenght it lacks currently. Secondary importance things and cultural and language links issues can be taken care by every state.

Other options would be a confederation which we currntly have and unitary country, which I doubt will work for Europe. Only big unitary country is China, others are federations: US, Russia, India, Canada, Australia, Brazil, Mexico etc.

[Susi]

.-. Is a Dominion a Federation then? The only reason, in my opinion, that the federal approach works in Canada is because it is one nation, not several. Yes, we have the Quebecois "nation" at the moment as well as differences between the vast areas.. but it is one nation. For many years the area that was Canada was exclusively Anglo/French. So it was easy to have a federation... I do not think that this would work with Europe.

[Susi]

Furthermore, on the Anglo/French note, the Anglos had conquered the French and sent many of them to what is today the southern United States (around Louisiana).

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Susi

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