National Anarchism

[Breogan]

Perhaps it is an older matter.

Surely a Greek as usual, Diogenes could fit.

[Blood Axis]

Originally Posted by Galaicon

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and on a lower level but still very important Mikhail Bakunin.

Kropotkin too?

[Sergius]

You saw that? I edited it as soon as it was posted.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Blood Axis

Kropotkin too?

He is rather the father of Anarchist communism.

[Ariets]

Same shit as anarchism.

[Blood Axis]

Originally Posted by Ariets

Same shit as anarchism.

Worthless one-liner non-contributing post

[Rodozashtitnik]

Well, Bakunin was an internationalist. He was in the First International I believe. Anarchism = internationalism. Rural socialism is a class theory, which means that it's not related to Nationalism at all.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Rodozashtitnik

Well, Bakunin was an internationalist. He was in the First International I believe. Anarchism = internationalism. Rural socialism is a class theory, which means that it's not related to Nationalism at all.

Bakunin was not an internationalist in the strict sense of the word, he was a federalist/secesionist:

"every individual, every association, every commune, every region, every nation has the absolute right to self-determination, to associate or not to associate, to ally themselves with whomever they wish."

"First: all organizations must proceed by way of federation from the base to the summit, from the commune to the coordinating association of the country or nation. Second: there must be at least one autonomous intermediate body between the commune and the country, the department, the region, or the province."

"The province must be nothing but a free federation of autonomous communes."

"The nation must be nothing but a federation of autonomous provinces."

Works of Mikhail Bakunin 1866

It is true that he also supports the "International Federation of revolutionary peoples", but always respecting the will of the independent nations/federations and the right to self-determination.

So, Bakunin by himself supports Internationalism, but Internationalism isn't part of his Anarcho-collectivist doctrine, it is not an Anarchist "dogma", therefore Anarchism can be carried out without having an Internationalist goal.

[Rodozashtitnik]

I can't imagine that. You're part of the First International, you support the jewish international communism, you're against monarchy and religion, you're supporter of the Paris Commune and against nationalists like Guiseppe Mazzini and etc. and still you're not internationalist. Well, that's nonsense. If you're not a nationalist (which Bakunin isn't) you're an internationalist. It's that simple.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Rodozashtitnik

I can't imagine that. You're part of the First International, you support the jewish international communism, you're against monarchy and religion, you're supporter of the Paris Commune and against nationalists like Guiseppe Mazzini and etc. and still you're not internationalist. Well, that's nonsense. If you're not a nationalist (which Bakunin isn't) you're an internationalist. It's that simple.

It's not about black and white, there are lots of different shades in the middle.

[Rodozashtitnik]

Originally Posted by Galaico

It's not about black and white, there are lots of different shades in the middle.

For example....

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Rodozashtitnik

For example....

I don't know about Bakunin, but Proudhon for exemple, had some ideas that could be considered as conservative or reactionnary (including praising the patriarchal family).

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Rodozashtitnik

For example....

Well, for example people who don't give a damn about it.

Left-wing anti-globalisationists aswell.

[Kalevi]

Originally Posted by Breogan

Q. But surely this process will lead to technological regression?

A. Of course. National-Anarchists are not opposed to technology per se - or at least those forms which do not harm the environment - but it remains a fact that once the internationalist system begins to wither away and people start to return to a more natural lifestyle, the factories will stand idle and therefore nobody will be on hand to produce computers, televisions and other luxury items. People will be forced to live without cars and supermarkets, chat shows and telephones, vibrators and central heating. Eventually this will lead to a more leisurely way of life, simply because on average hunter-gatherers work something like two hours a day in order to satisfy their basic needs.

These people are being seriously delusional. Do you have any idea how much land (in natural state) is needed per one hunter-gatherer? So much that such a small hunter-gatherer population could not possibly defend it in modern times.

The most realistic option for establishing such a commune inside Europe would be to collect enough money to buy the needed amount of land (and pay for it's inhabitants to leave) from the backwoods of Finland or Sweden, and then fight against our sissy governments for their independence. In Russia and Eastern Europe - not a chance. If it would be established to some third world country by Europeans, it could hardly be called 'national' any more.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Rodozashtitnik

For example....

For example you mention Giuseppe Mazzini as a nationalist.

Mazzini was not a nationalist but a statist. He had no concept of nation but of state. Further, he was a Freemason and as such adhered to the ideas of Universalism and Cosmopolitanism.

[Rodozashtitnik]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Left-wing anti-globalisationists aswell.

Well, they are not quite right in the head.
There's no such thing as an "international - nationalist". You cannot "recite" Marx and at the same time you pretend to be an antiglobalist.

[Rodozashtitnik]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

For example you mention Giuseppe Mazzini as a nationalist.

Mazzini was not a nationalist but a statist. He had no concept of nation but of state. Further, he was a Freemason and as such adhered to the ideas of Universalism and Cosmopolitanism.

Statist? Okay. But if he really was a freemason, that's enough for me. What is your opinion about Garibaldi? Was he a nationalist?