Race, tribe and nationalism

[Sergius]

Originally Posted by Vasconcelos

Where would people of mixed ethnicity fit in?

Nowhere. They should have thought of that earlier.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Bograchev Mahil

Interestingly what would happen if the "descendants of the people of your nation" can't pass as "people of suitable European sub-racial identity"? Could they legitimately become citizens of that nation?

To be perfectly honest, when I read "people of suitable European sub-racial identity" I was thinking in terms of "people of suitable European ethnic identity".

In my post I mention that I could point those who have been historically assimilable in Spain. That could help to understand what I mean. This has been limited to the Atlantic peoples (Irish and Bretons) and the Occitans (aka S. French). Anything else has not been ever achieved without an impact. Even in the case of the Gothic peoples who were part of the ethnogenesis in Hispania, the assimilation was not smooth and it did not lack of consequences.

Having said that, I do have sub-racial preferences but these are of a secondary importance.

Originally Posted by Tennyson

Mynydd, this doesn't mean that you care less about race. There is nothing in racialism that would require you to welcome all members of your race to your country.

However, you correctly believe that race is an aspect of national identity and categorically object to the presence of racial aliens in your country and that makes you a racialist.

Ideologically speaking, I am not a racialist. I do acknowledge race as an element for national identity. But I too acknowledge culture, spirituality, history and heritage continuity as elements for national identity. As an [ethnic] nationalist none of those elements alone could ever replace my identity. In other words, I don't see other option but national integrity.

This is different with, for example, Americans. Failing to have an ethnic identity, they clinge to ideas constructed around broader concepts often rather blurry and unreal.

For me, the question of fellow Europeans immigrating to my country is purely practical, not ideological. Does it help my nation? Does it help me? Economic considerations are also important.

Economic considerations are what politicians have used to excuse the phenomenon of immigration.

Make no mistake here. If Europe is ever to get out of this chaos it will require strong and long sacrificing in terms of economics. And the way that things are, I can tell you that Europeans are not willing to do that. This is more true in the West than in the East, which is why some perceive that Russia might be the nation where things might explode first. But, unfortunately, this is likely to be only a mirage as in Eastern Europe they have been "catching up" with Western Europe.

You think that sub-race is important? Which Europid sub-races are unwelcome then?

Similarly in the way as Nordicists believe that Nordics are an endagered species, I too believe that Atlanto-Mediterraneans are an endangered species (notice here that just like they limit it to Nordo-Germanics, I limit it to Ibero Atlanto-Mediterraneans). But, unlike Nordicists, I don't use this as an excuse to practise retarded hostility against fellow Europeans one day, and to beg charity through affirmative action the next day.

But this really should be an issue for another discussion.

There's nationalism and then there is bigotry I referred to as ultra-nationalism. For example, there are a lot of Finnish "nationalists" who hate all Estonians Russians and Swedes.

Oh.. but that's got another name: jingoism. I understand now. I could point to the example par excellence of jingoism, but I'll better keep quiet here.

Jingoism is a disgrace and it can only bring in misery.

I am also an Elitist and I could care less if unemployed drunkards whine that Estonians are stealing their jobs.

There are two things that I meant with Elitist. Let me explain it.

First, and directly related to the issue being discussed on this thread, I not only believe that limited numbers of Europeans from an off-limits ethnicities but of excellent qualities may not only be welcomed, but they should be thought of as an enrichening element. I have argued times before that Europe as a whole did not rise above the rest of the people of this planet in monolithic groups, but that it was through the exchange of knowledge and skills of many individual groups and sub-groups.

The other way in which I mean Elitism is in opposition to Prolet-Aryanism. I had an argument time ago with a former member of the Staff of Stirpes who argued that would consider any element from the nation above anyone else, negative as this element was. No comments..

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Vasconcelos

Interesting. Where would people of mixed ethnicity fit in?

Nowhere. Like me. I'm a paradox because I am the daughter of immigrants here but if I move back to where my family came from, I'm still an immigrant. :\

I guess it depends on the country... That's why I picked "European Europids" as well...

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Susi

Nowhere. Like me. I'm a paradox because I am the daughter of immigrants here but if I move back to where my family came from, I'm still an immigrant. :\

I guess it depends on the country... That's why I picked "European Europids" as well...

You'll never be an "immigrant" here. I've never met a Canadian who 'came home' but I've known a fair few Rhodesians and Kenyans who did, some after a few generations, and they're definitely OUR people, no question about it.
It's just like someone from Kent moving to Cumberland sort of thing.

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

You'll never be an "immigrant" here. I've never met a Canadian who 'came home' but I've known a fair few Rhodesians and Kenyans who did, some after a few generations, and they're definitely OUR people, no question about it.
It's just like someone from Kent moving to Cumberland sort of thing.

They'd just laugh at my funny accent and bizarre mannerisms. Sometimes I feel I don't belong anywhere. *sigh*

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Panonski

"All European Europids"

That is simmilar to "Descendants of European Christendom", again no. It would mean that I should accept people who have nothing to do with my country.

Albanians, Bosnians and Chechens are European Europids but they are also Muslims.
That is the difference between the two alternatives.

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Ideologically speaking, I am not a racialist. I do acknowledge race as an element for national identity. But I too acknowledge culture, spirituality, history and heritage continuity as elements for national identity. As an [ethnic] nationalist none of those elements alone could ever replace my identity. In other words, I don't see other option but national integrity.

Well, you don't think that race is less of criterion for national identity but you build your concept of nation to be more exclusionist on the basis of culture and other such things.

This is different with, for example, Americans. Failing to have an ethnic identity, they clinge to ideas constructed around broader concepts often rather blurry and unreal.

American identity has always revolved around race. From the 1700s to the Civil War you had to be "White" (defined as being of European or unmixed Semitic descent) to be an American citizen.

From the Civil War to 1940s you had to be either White or a Negro to be an American citizen. Orientals, Indians, Afghans, Turks, natifve Amerindians (to the 1920s) and other such peoples were excluded.

Economic considerations are what politicians have used to excuse the phenomenon of immigration.

Exactly and that is the reason they are so important. They misuse statistics to excuse their multicultural agenda. For example, when they talk about the economic benefits of immigration they group together American engineers who come to work for European companies and Third World immigrants. The key to success for European nationalists is to expose these hoaxes.

It is utopistic to think that Europeans would embrace ideological nationalism again if the large immigrant populations which constitute a powerful voting block are not deported which can be justified also with pragmatic, economic arguments.

Make no mistake here. If Europe is ever to get out of this chaos it will require strong and long sacrificing in terms of economics. And the way that things are, I can tell you that Europeans are not willing to do that. This is more true in the West than in the East, which is why some perceive that Russia might be the nation where things might explode first. But, unfortunately, this is likely to be only a mirage as in Eastern Europe they have been "catching up" with Western Europe.

I am of the opinion that considerable economic and social advantages could be obtained if the unassimilated/criminal, unemployed and unproductive majority of Third World immigrants would be deported and immigration from developing countries radically restricted.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Nowhere. They should have thought of that earlier.

Don't get it wrong. It is not as if anyone was saying that people should be purged or that marriages between different European ethnicities should be banned.

This has never been a problem in the past and it shouldn't be a problem today. However, it could be a problem if it happened in significant numbers. For example, in the case here of the English who are an ethnic group significantly different to the native Spaniards, they are significant in numbers, and they are taking local women.

The child of such a union is going to have his allegiances split. It is not an ethnically compatible union, in my opinion. And, the English having a very serious problem back at home, it can only get worse and help to spread the problem here.

Apart from that, I wouldn't oppose to compatible unions and on individual cases, but I wouldn't encourage them either.

I had one personal experience myself in the past, which was motivated by special circumstances. My ex, she was an Afrikaner from South Africa and we both lived in England. As time passed, the ethnic gap became more clear. Unconciously, I started doing something that I had never done before when being with another woman. So unconciously that I didn't even notice. It was her who told me, to my surprise. When passing near a Spanish woman, I would turn around to look at her even if I was going accompanied by my ex. She tried hard, observing patterns of behavious and fashion in the Spanish, and imitating them. But that just made it worse..

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Tennyson

Well, you don't think that race is less of criterion for national identity but you build your concept of nation to be more exclusionist on the basis of culture and other such things.

I don't make it anything more than what it really is. It is heritage. A few foreign European elements can be shock absorbed without even noticing. But as numbers approach levels of significance both in numbers and in difference, that heritage becomes more vulnerable.

American identity has always revolved around race. From the 1700s to the Civil War you had to be "White" (defined as being of European or unmixed Semitic descent) to be an American citizen.

You call that identity. Yet I have seen honest Americans admitting that they are a people confused about their identity, because it is non-existent. Which is why you see them clinging to those fantastic, to the point of ridiculous pseudo-identities. You see them claiming long and ancient lineages one moment, and the next moment admitting that they don't know who their father was.

Exactly and that is the reason they are so important. They misuse statistics to excuse their multicultural agenda.

The misuse (rather falsification) of statistics will explode them right in their hands. Unfortunately it is us who will pay the bill.

For example, when they talk about the economic benefits of immigration they group together American engineers who come to work for European companies and Third World immigrants. The key to success for European nationalists is to expose these hoaxes.

But not with more hoaxes. The numbers of American engineers are statistically of no significance there.

It is utopistic to think that Europeans would embrace ideological nationalism again if the large immigrant populations which constitute a powerful voting block are not deported which can be justified also with pragmatic, economic arguments.

Vlaams Belang's rise has been cut off in part by the vote of the immigrant population. The electoral poster of Front National reflects the awareness of this fact.

I am of the opinion that considerable economic and social advantages could be obtained if the unassimilated/criminal, unemployed and unproductive majority of Third World immigrants would be deported and immigration from developing countries radically restricted.

I'm afraid that the picture is much more complex than that. In a market economy, economic sustainability is a constant exercise of equilibrium over a tightrope. Market economy is designed in a complex and entangled way in which, if one brick is missing the entire building crumbles. The dependence on global economy has made this equilibrium the more fragile.

We are, I'm afraid, sitting over a time bomb.

[Marulus]

The European plutocracy benefits the most from the present situation.
All those immigrants living on welfare may not be an economic problem form the viewpoint of the exponents of this plutocracy. They take money from the middle class, give that money to those-living-off-welfare. Those people who get that money spend it on cheap goods produced by the multinationals, which are in turn in hands of this plutocracy, so they get richer. In statistics that may also represent a kind of economic growth! That is the perverted logic of the economy-above-all-logic!

It is obvious European people, if they wish their nations to survive, must shake off this logic that economy means everything, this worship of economy the modern West embraces, may be digging the grave of Europe!

[Tennyson]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I don't make it anything more than what it really is. It is heritage. A few foreign European elements can be shock absorbed without even noticing. But as numbers approach levels of significance both in numbers and in difference, that heritage becomes more vulnerable.

Heritage is a vague concept.

You call that identity.

I am talking about the hard legal concept of citizenship.

Yet I have seen honest Americans admitting that they are a people confused about their identity, because it is non-existent. Which is why you see them clinging to those fantastic, to the point of ridiculous pseudo-identities. You see them claiming long and ancient lineages one moment, and the next moment admitting that they don't know who their father was.

I don't regard this as relevant from our perspective as European nationalists. Why should I be offended if they have a weak national identity?

The personal worth of an individual does not derive from the strength of the national spirit of his people. All the better if American immigrants have no strong identity as Americans. They could more easily become Finns than a patriotic Spaniard. In the case of a person like you I would regard that as pretty much impossible.

Besides, it was the lower class of Europeans which populated the colonies. An average American is not a worse person than an average Briton of corresponding social status. In fact, America and Britain are both Anglo-Saxon countries and very much alike.

Because of this I am skeptical towards anti-Americanism as Britain should be left outside any kind of construct of European unity opposed to America and historically more inclined to the more culturally meaningful Atlantic cooperation.

But not with more hoaxes. The numbers of American engineers are statistically of no significance there.

The example signified the fact that the economic benefits of the immigration of highly educated immigrants and people from OECD countries is used to cover up the costs of refugees, asylum seekers and illegal immigrants.

Vlaams Belang's rise has been cut off in part by the vote of the immigrant population.

On the other hand, when the traditional leftist parties increasingly become the parties of immigrants who seek to blatantly transform the policies to reflect their own ethno-specific interests native population is increasingly alienated by them.

The electoral poster of Front National reflects the awareness of this fact.

The poster of French Front National with a Black girl? How does it relate to this?

I'm afraid that the picture is much more complex than that. In a market economy, economic sustainability is a constant exercise of equilibrium over a tightrope. Market economy is designed in a complex and entangled way in which, if one brick is missing the entire building crumbles. The dependence on global economy has made this equilibrium the more fragile.

We are, I'm afraid, sitting over a time bomb.

Unemployed immigrants are hardly integrated to the system of market economy and their role in the economy is completely analogous to their needy compatriots in Third World: a drain of money.

[Marulus]

Free-market economy is one of the modern Anglo-Saxon liberal hoaxes.
There was never any "free-market" economy in the full sense of word. Even the USA is no free-market economy, as their government heavily subsidizes their big firms and they put serious restrictions (or heavy taxes) on any kind of import from abroad.

If the "European" plutocracy hadn't wished it, the immigrants form the so-called Third World would never have come to Europe. The plutocrats are benefiting form them in many ways.

[kyashan]

Migration is not a problem per se. the real problem are its proportions, more specifically mass migrations. if someone wants to spend some time in a foreign country, that's fine (I'd like to do it myself). People don't immigrate spontaneously in large numbers, just those ones who have the skills and the will to integrate themselves in another country choose this option.
the real problem is when people are forced to leave en mass their own country because of starvation, political and social issues etc.
the same thing goes for internal migration.