Can Britain Save Europe?

[Nerthus]

Can Britain Save Europe?

Solutions to the EU's woes won't be easy for Tony Blair to find

Britain takes over the European Union's presidency next month. But after dropping plans Monday for a referendum on the EU constitution, London may have difficulty healing growing rifts on the continent.

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[Perun]

As Ive often mentioned, I have a love-hate view towards the British. On one hand, I admire their culture: among my favorite poets(like Shakespeare, Keats, Byron, etc), actors, etc are British.

But Britain has always been the outside of continental Europe. This especially became true after the Henry VIII's break with the Papacy, which had the effect of severing whatever cultural ties England did have with the continent.

Can Britain save Europe? I have my doubts.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Perun

Can Britain save Europe? I have my doubts.

Just as America saved Europe and Japan in 1944-45 I guess.

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

Just as America saved Europe and Japan in 1944-45 I guess.

/start rant
Well, that is the lamest comparison i've read in a while....
I don't like what americans call "culture", I'm not that much fond of most political and social attitudes of the Brits, but surely, if it wasn't for them, you my friend would either be speaking deutsche or probably would never have been born. Sure, my nation is a little backwater country, but at least we don't need the Brits and Americans to fight our wars for us. /end rant

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Manji

/start rant
Well, that is the lamest comparison i've read in a while....
I don't like what americans call "culture", I'm not that much fond of most political and social attitudes of the Brits, but surely, if it wasn't for them, you my friend would either be speaking deutsche or probably would never have been born. Sure, my nation is a little backwater country, but at least we don't need the Brits and Americans to fight our wars for us. /end rant

/development

Irrelevant arguement Manji. The kind of argument which the pro Yankees use (and some others).

"Without americans you would be speaking German"... Instead of German we are speaking English in this very moment.
"Without Americans you would live in Germania, ruled by Germans"... Instead of Germania we live in America, Europe is an area controlled by Americans, some guys who don't even know where France, Germany or any european countries
are.
"Without Americans you would never have been born"... Yes, and "if my aunt had balls, we would call her Mister" (very coloured french saying, nothing coarse). Nobody needs these "evil" Germans not to have been born. Life is so imprevisible.

What do you call the invasion of Europe by Americans? A "liberation"?

Perhaps Portugal is happier and I am delighted for you, but I don't think France is happier since conquerant GIes gave us coke and chewingum before raping her girls. Americans are murderers not liberators, they didn't give a shit about France, they didn't come to liberate Europe but conquerer and occupy it (plus some hidden interests). They once killed innocent europeans and they're now choking our cultures.

Thanks to Anglos, Europeans can now eat some "delicious" meal at Mc Donald, Burger King or KFC (hmm, we get the choice ) while watching Jackass/Dirty Sanchez/mixer programmes on MTV, listening to some Rap-RNB shit and looking for the new trendy clothing... Yes, it seems we are free (I repeat it to convince myself).

end of development/

Sure, my nation is a little backwater country, but at least we don't need the Brits and Americans to fight our wars for us.

Aaaaaarr Ho, ho, my "attack against France" radar is buzzing.
Damn, I wish I could reply without being banned or warned.

[Gil]

Make no mistake, you can rant or rave all you want since I have no special status in Stirpes, as a matter of fact, my comment could be understood as pro-american, which it isn't.

Originally Posted by Duchemin

What do you call the invasion of Europe by Americans? A "liberation"?

I'll bet my monthly wage (not much really anyway...) that your grandparents and their neighbours and the vast majority of french prefered the "american invasion" to the "german invasion". After all, if memory serves me right, the french weren't very happy with the Vichy government neither with the german occupation forces...

Originally Posted by Duchemin

Thanks to Anglos, Europeans can now eat some "delicious" meal at Mc Donald, Burger King or KFC (hmm, we get the choice ) while watching Jackass/Dirty Sanchez/mixer programmes on MTV, listening to some Rap-RNB shit and looking for the new trendy clothing... Yes, it seems we are free (I repeat it to convince myself).

Well, you don't need to have any historical ties to the US to watch those shows or eat their fast food, hell, even if you do have ties to the US you only do what you want, blaming the US because your youth is a bunch of dumbf*cks it's discarding your responsabilities. And this applies not only to France but everywhere.

Originally Posted by Duchemin

Perhaps Portugal is happier and I am delighted for you...

Not really, actually we are knee deep in sh*tty politics and social clash. I actually think France as a whole is getting quicker into the "awareness" bandwagon and nationalistic esprit, perhaps due to their immigration/social issues, I wasn't ranting anti-france or anti-germany or pro-US, i'm ranting against the denial that the history of the entire world would have been very different if the Third Reich had faced no opposition because, let's be honest, the german war machine and their war tactics were number one at the time, the only way to face them was with sheer numerical superiority.

[Carnyx]

I'll bet my monthly wage (not much really anyway...) that your grandparents and their neighbours and the vast majority of french prefered the "american invasion" to the "german invasion". After all, if memory serves me right, the french weren't very happy with the Vichy government neither with the german occupation forces...

Hmm, I won't say you're wrong but it's a shortcut. French were Petainists in the begining of the Vichy regim. But it's true that many french were fooled by British propaganda, many were opposed to German occupation but few fought them; however American received a mitigated reception. I was told american "surgical" air raids by two of grand parents (those ones were very were anti-german). I can't say they were found of americans, the so-called liberators who behaved like in a conquered country.

Note apart : Vichy rules!

Well, you don't need to have any historical ties to the US to watch those shows or eat their fast food, hell, even if you do have ties to the US you only do what you want, blaming the US because your youth is a bunch of dumbf*cks it's discarding your responsabilities. And this applies not only to France but everywhere.

Which responsablities? We're about the same age, I didn't take any part in these events. I have any responsability, I can't be blame for what it's happening. I'm not responsible for the "Plan Marshall" and the American Way of Life and Mc Do inauguration. I didn't elect our 30 years last politicians.
I was speaking for Europe, not only for France.
I just said that German imperialism wasn't worse than American imperialism.

Not really, actually we are knee deep in sh*tty politics and social clash. I actually think France as a whole is getting quicker into the "awareness" bandwagon and nationalistic esprit, perhaps due to their immigration/social issues, I wasn't ranting anti-france or anti-germany or pro-US, i'm ranting against the denial that the history of the entire world would have been very different if the Third Reich had faced no opposition because, let's be honest, the german war machine and their war tactics were number one at the time, the only way to face them was with sheer numerical superiority.

Sorry for Portugal. I suppose you're as responsible as I'm for the americanisation of our youth.
Yes indeed, it would have been very different, European population wouldn't be facing extinction (though I'm not a "nazi").

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Manji

/start rant
Well, that is the lamest comparison i've read in a while....
I don't like what americans call "culture", I'm not that much fond of most political and social attitudes of the Brits, but surely, if it wasn't for them, you my friend would either be speaking deutsche or probably would never have been born. Sure, my nation is a little backwater country, but at least we don't need the Brits and Americans to fight our wars for us. /end rant

Ok, it was not serious, but since Mr Manji wants to take it seriously...

Once again, you are showing you don't know anything about WWII or France, since you keep repeating basical propaganda lies and stupidities such as "the Germans wanted to kill every non-German in Europe". Last time it was "Hitler wanted to divide France between Germany and America", now it is "Hitler wanted to kill and eat the French". I'm really wondering what will be the next nonsense.

I don't have special love towards Hitler, neither special hatred (I would say I don't care because we are in 2005, and as I already said it I don't live in the past), but your comments about WWII are simply ridiculous.

We need the Brits and Americans to fight our wars for us ? Do you only know there were more French deaths than American or British ones ?

France : 595,000 deaths
UK : 394,000 deaths
USA : 290,000 deaths

Moreover this war was started by both France and Great Britain, it was not as if the Brits were our "'liberators", they were responsible and it was their business as well. If they decided to invade France, this wasn't for "liberating" France but for protecting their own interests.
As for the Americans, the word "invasion" was used to name their military operations in France, not "liberation". Do you know something about AMGOT (Allied Military Government of the Occupated Territories) ? If it wasn't for De Gaulle, France would have been an American colony under American military occupation, just like Germany, Austria and Italy.

I also think you've never heard of de Gaulle and the FFL (Forces Françaises Libres) - who saved British army from the disaster in Bir Hakeim in 1942, who won Monte Cassino in 1944, who were the first to cross the Rhine river in 1945, who liberated Paris (von Choltitz capitulated to Leclerc and Rol-Tanguy, from FFL and FFI), Strasbourg, ... 70,000 of them died on French soil, almost as many as the Americans in France. Without the French resistance and their informations, the D-Day would probably not have been possible - or very difficult and later. Eisenhower himseld said the French resistance, with about 40,000 men, had as much worth as 15 divisions (i.e something like 200,000 soldiers).

You have no fucking idea of how the French suffered in this war. My grandfather lived in Normandy at this time, two of his brothers were killed under American bombardments, like 130,000 French. Whole Normandy was destroyed, almost all Western cities were as well (Caen, Brest, Bayeux, Rouen, La Rochelle, Rennes, Nantes, Le Havre, Saint-Malo, ...), France was ransacked, more than 1,200,000 buildings and 9,300 bridges were erased, 1 million French were without housing in 1945, ...

And you, a Portuguese whose country wasn't even involved in this conflict, dare to say the French were cowardly during WWII ?


(Of course as a modern French I have nothing to do with FFL's or FFI's exploits; I might even not agree with their political orientation most of the time; but I respect them and I'm not going to let any primitive anti-French say the French "weren't able to fight their own war in 1939-45")

[Gil]

I think you need to cool your head before answering and perhaps start reading my threads properly.

First of all, my point was that you cannot, in truth, state that the french resistance and/or any other french military would have stopped the german advance. Damn, you guys were occupied, you had to resort to guerrila warfare!

Also, I refered that I was not making a pro-US point, if your only argument is too attack American Imperialism, be my guest, but that does not have anything to do with my post.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

You have no fucking idea of how the French suffered in this war.

Sure. Perhaps you never heard of the Portuguese Colonial War, from 1961 to 1974? You can compare numbers and in the end the french casualties will be higher, no doubt about it, but isn't war always cruel, no matter how "big" it was? You say I have no "fucking idea", well, I perhaps have the same "idea" that you do, wise guy.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

And you, a Portuguese whose country wasn't even involved in this conflict, dare to say the French were cowardly during WWII ?

Oh, pardon me my lord! So, since i'm not a roman then I can't say that the romans were cowards? Or perhaps i'm not allowed to discuss the story of ancient greece because, well, no portuguese were there at the time? Oh well....

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

let any primitive anti-French

Ok, remove head from sphincter, then talk.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Manji

First of all, my point was that you cannot, in truth, state that the french resistance and/or any other french military would have stopped the german advance. Damn, you guys were occupied, you had to resort to guerrila warfare!

Yes, where did I say the French resistance or any French military could have stopped the German advance ?
Firstly you told me "if it wasn't for them, you my friend would either be speaking deutsche or probably would never have been born" and I answered you Hitler would not have killed and/or eaten the French. As for speaking German, I already speak a German(ic) dialect.
Then you told me "at least we don't need the Brits and Americans to fight our wars for us." and I told you this war was started by both France and Great Britain, so WWII was basically a Franco-British war, and I proved you the Americans didn't fight WWII "for us" but for their own interests (and this is totally normal anyway). You also implied the French didn't fight between 1939-1945 so I proved you the French had had more deaths than the Brits or the Americans and the French soldiers/resistance greatly helped Allied forces during Campaign in France and liberated many regions and cities. Any objection ?

Also, I refered that I was not making a pro-US point, if your only argument is too attack American Imperialism, be my guest, but that does not have anything to do with my post.

Yes, my point was to attack Anglo-Saxon imperialism first, then to defend France against your attacks.

Sure. Perhaps you never heard of the Portuguese Colonial War, from 1961 to 1974? You can compare numbers and in the end the french casualties will be higher, no doubt about it, but isn't war always cruel, no matter how "big" it was?

Right, but Portuguese Colonial War and World War II aren't comparable since Portuguese Colonial Wars didn't happen on Portuguese soil - but in Mozambique and Angola, if I'm not mistaken.

Oh, pardon me my lord! So, since i'm not a roman then I can't say that the romans were cowards? Or perhaps i'm not allowed to discuss the story of ancient greece because, well, no portuguese were there at the time? Oh well....

Ok, you got the point here.

Ok, remove head from sphincter, then talk

One time this is funny. The second time it becomes serious...

[Gil]

I'll quote myself, yet again:

Originally Posted by Manji

I actually think France as a whole is getting quicker into the "awareness" bandwagon and nationalistic esprit, perhaps due to their immigration/social issues, I wasn't ranting anti-france or anti-germany or pro-US, i'm ranting against the denial that the history of the entire world would have been very different if the Third Reich had faced no opposition

As seen above, I wasn't "attacking" France.

When did forum discussions became "serious". Relating to the other post, I clearly stated it was humour, if you lack the ability to "digest" that type of humour, don't read it. Simple, huh?
OK, what exactly do you want? I'll give it to you on a silver plate:

"The french people, as a whole, are as corageous folk, in terms of combat bravery, and have, like many other european nations, a glorious past history of victories."

Ok, did that make you happy? I hope so. If you consider "offense" a comment which expresses personal opinion on a subject, then you must have alot of qualms in every forum someone disagrees with you.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Manji

"The french people, as a whole, are as corageous folk, in terms of combat bravery, and have, like many other european nations, a glorious past history of victories."

You just have to remove the quotation marks and it is excellent.

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

You just have to remove the quotation marks and it is excellent.

When did forum discussions became "serious". Relating to the other post, I clearly stated it was humour, if you lack the ability to "digest" that type of humour, don't read it. Simple, huh?
OK, what exactly do you want? I'll give it to you on a silver plate:

The french people, as a whole, are as corageous folk, in terms of combat bravery, and have, like many other european nations, a glorious past history of victories. - Manji

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Manji

When did forum discussions became "serious". Relating to the other post, I clearly stated it was humour, if you lack the ability to "digest" that type of humour, don't read it. Simple, huh?
OK, what exactly do you want? I'll give it to you on a silver plate:

The french people, as a whole, are as corageous folk, in terms of combat bravery, and have, like many other european nations, a glorious past history of victories. - Manji

My last post was humour as well.