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Old Friday, May 16th, 2008
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Default Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

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Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat
By Judy Dempsey
Wednesday, May 14, 2008


WARSAW: Whenever the United States sends missile defense negotiators to the Czech Republic and Poland, where the Bush administration intends to deploy parts of its anti-ballistic shield, they encounter surprisingly different attitudes.

In the Czech Republic, where negotiations are all but complete, the administration deals with a government that believes that the threat the shield is designed to counter comes from Iran and other "rogue" regimes.

"Our rationale for agreeing to accept the radars stems from the fact that we agree about the threats," said Nikola Hynek, a security expert at the Institute of International Relations in Prague.

In Poland, traditionally one of the closest U.S. allies in this part of Europe, Donald Tusk's center-right Civic Platform coalition has taken a dramatically different stance. It believes the threat comes from Russia, not the Middle East.

"Look at our backyard. There is Russia. There is the tension between Georgia and Russia. There is uncertainty in Ukraine and unpredictability in Belarus," said Pawel Swieboda, director of demosEuropa, an independent research center in Warsaw. "That explains the Polish attitude toward security."

These different perceptions have influenced the missile shield negotiations. Mirek Topolanek's government in Prague presented a very modest wish list to Washington. There was little haggling over costs, how the radars for the missile shield would be protected, or how many jobs the bases would provide. Instead, the Czechs asked that their scientists be involved in the development of the shield and that the U.S.-Czech industry establish co-production projects. For the politicians, the Defense Ministry and the scientific community, this presents a great opportunity to bolster Czech technological expertise. The United States agreed, although it was not certain that it was prepared to share the missile technology itself.

When it came to the demands set by Tusk and his foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, the U.S. negotiators were taken aback, particularly since the previous nationalist-conservative government under Jaroslaw Kaczynski had set no conditions. "The Poles have become very tough," said Stephen Flanagan, senior vice president of the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

The Poles, at least until now, have agreed to host up to 10 interceptors because, as Bogdan Klich, the defense minister, explained, this is their chance to obtain a security umbrella from the United States that neither NATO nor the European Union can provide.

But there is a twist in the Polish negotiating stance. Officials here say that once the United States has installed the system on its territory, it could make Poland more vulnerable - not so much from attacks from far afield, such as Iran, but much closer to home, such as Russia. That is why the Tusk government is insisting that the United States agree to modernize Poland's air defenses by, for example, providing surface-to-air Patriot missiles. In talks with Polish officials here, there is an impression that if Warsaw wants to establish a long-term and more balanced relationship with the Kremlin, it will first require a strong security system to underpin it, such as the missile defense shield and the Patriot missiles.

The Poles are playing tough because they believe the Bush administration wants to wrap up these talks by the time it leaves office in January. "Missile defense is one of the legacy items," said Flanagan. Even so, the Poles are pursuing a high-risk strategy.

Despite the rhetoric by Vladimir Putin, who as Russian president warned of a new Cold War if the Americans deployed the shield in Central Europe, the United States and Russia have recently signed two important accords. During the summit meeting in Sochi last month between President George W. Bush and Putin, they agreed to revive the special strategic framework in which both sides hold regular consultations over crucial issues. Last week, they agreed to cooperate in the peaceful uses of nuclear energy involving both Russian and U.S. companies in joint ventures. Furthermore, U.S. industries would be allowed the commercial sales of nuclear materials, reactors, and major reactor components to Russia.

Thus, the Polish fears about Russia may not correspond to the cautious shift toward cooperation taking place in Washington.

"Poland knows that the missile defense system does not threaten Russia. Russia knows that too, which is why the United States may be questioning the request to modernize Poland's air defenses," said Flanagan. In any case, he added, Poland should feel secure because NATO stands by Article V, whereby the alliance would come to the assistance of one of its members if it was attacked or threatened by attack.

Poland is driving a hard bargain with the Bush administration for another reason - it's payback time. The Poles believe they have been treated shabbily since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Poland, strapped for cash, lacking new armored personnel carriers and other protection equipment for its troops, stepped in to fill the gap when Spain under its newly elected Socialist government in the spring of 2004 withdrew its troops. Poland sent nearly 2,000 soldiers to Iraq and despite casualties, dwindling support from public opinion at home and meager resources, Poland has stuck it out.

In doing so, it expected some rewards - for instance, reconstruction contracts for Iraq or at the very least, a visa waiver by the United States for Polish citizens. The administration has delivered neither. "We carried the can in Iraq, and now we are sending troops to Afghanistan," said Swieboda. "The government in Warsaw believes the U.S. has not been very responsive to Polish expectations nor has it taken our considerations very seriously." As a result, the Tusk government has decided to make the most of Bush's remaining months, convinced that the outgoing administration is determined to sign off on the missile defense before it leaves office.

If the Poles get what they want, their negotiating strategy will have paid off. If they don't, Poland faces the choice of lowering its demands or perhaps refusing the deployment. Either way, the Polish attitudes toward the United States will have changed. Being a good Atlanticist is not enough, Warsaw will have learned. You need some good bargaining chips too.
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Old Saturday, May 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

I think this article is quite interesting. I fully read it and I really do not know what to say about the Czech attitude. Although I like their country and their fast growing economy, I think they really do care about Russia's threat but they do not dare to take the risk Poland does. We are really dependent on Russia's gas, but still Poland takes the risk. And they're probably right. Every European Union country has the only right form of government: the democracy. If you look to the east: Belarus has a dictator and Russia is turning back to Tsar circumstances with Putin. I've been there just 1 week ago and I see a totalitarist-growing state with military-police everywhere and the young democracy has been officialy crumbled there last week.

Well, i just support Poland's attitude. But I hope they will get from the USA what they hope for, because it's probably not coming until the election and if Obama wins Poland's military ambitions will maybe be forgotten more easily. A message of hope.
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Old Saturday, May 17th, 2008
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

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Originally Posted by Jan III Sobieski View Post
Although I like their country and their fast growing economy
Is it the only thing that comes to your mind when referring to a country, especially concerning "liking of that country"? Its growing economy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan III Sobieski View Post
Every European Union country has the only right form of government: the democracy.
Really? Why is then that the Lisbon Treaty, a piece of paper which inaugurates the new totalitarian superstate, is being progressively imposed on all EU countries undemocratically, without referenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan III Sobieski View Post
If you look to the east: Belarus has a dictator
A "dictator" elected by more than 80% of voters....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan III Sobieski View Post
and Russia is turning back to Tsar circumstances with Putin. I've been there just 1 week ago and I see a totalitarist-growing state with military-police everywhere and the young democracy has been officialy crumbled there last week.
All you say applies to the totalitarian EU more than to Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan III Sobieski View Post
But I hope they will get from the USA what they hope for, because it's probably not coming until the election and if Obama wins Poland's military ambitions will maybe be forgotten more easily. A message of hope.
So you are saying USA is no serious country? If assistance to the alleged strategic ally depends on who sits in the White House. Strange indeed...
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Old Tuesday, May 20th, 2008
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

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Originally Posted by Jan III Sobieski View Post
I think this article is quite interesting. I fully read it and I really do not know what to say about the Czech attitude. Although I like their country and their fast growing economy, I think they really do care about Russia's threat but they do not dare to take the risk Poland does. We are really dependent on Russia's gas, but still Poland takes the risk. And they're probably right. Every European Union country has the only right form of government: the democracy. If you look to the east: Belarus has a dictator and Russia is turning back to Tsar circumstances with Putin. I've been there just 1 week ago and I see a totalitarist-growing state with military-police everywhere and the young democracy has been officialy crumbled there last week.

Well, i just support Poland's attitude. But I hope they will get from the USA what they hope for, because it's probably not coming until the election and if Obama wins Poland's military ambitions will maybe be forgotten more easily. A message of hope.
In addition to what Marulus said, how exactly is Russia "undemocratic" when Putin and his policies are supported by 70% of Russians.
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Old Saturday, May 24th, 2008
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

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Originally Posted by Marulus View Post

A "dictator" elected by more than 80% of voters....

Wrong:

A dictator "elected" by more than 80% of voters....

My dear friend, in Soviet Union all the soviets (councils) had 99,9% support always. Belarus is now like a Soviet-nostalgia paradise. You can go and live there if you want but people with common sense want to get very far from that kind of sh**.
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Old Saturday, May 24th, 2008
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

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Originally Posted by Loorberitega Pärjatu View Post
Wrong:

A dictator "elected" by more than 80% of voters....

My dear friend, in Soviet Union all the soviets (councils) had 99,9% support always. Belarus is now like a Soviet-nostalgia paradise. You can go and live there if you want but people with common sense want to get very far from that kind of sh**.
My dear friend, the great EU you talk about only criticized the figure of 80% because in their words it was "un-European number." Had the number been 5% lower, they wouldn't be complaining about him.

Furthermore, what makes you sure that these people protesting Lukashenko have "common sense." If you were to look at the people who led Otpor in Serbia to overthrow Milosevic, then you'd believe the Serbian public wants recognize Kosovo as being independent, abolish the Serb entity in Bosnia, sell all it's industries to foreigners for $1, implement terrible Keynesian policies, not go after Milosevic era crooks, legalize gay marriage, legalize drugs and so forth. The people who protest the most in Belarus are probably a bunch of university students who can't study, who have radical beliefs, who would sell there own mothers to go west and who probably would be anarchists (like those in Greece) if not for the fact that they weren't receiving money from the U.S. funded "NED."
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Old Sunday, May 25th, 2008
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

It's the bitterness of lost empires that Serbs and Russians share.
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Old Sunday, May 25th, 2008
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

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It's the bitterness of lost empires that Serbs and Russians share.
Serbian empire lasted 25 years, and Yugoslavia can hardly be considered an empire. But you know I guess someone whose basis for facts is pro-Atlantist propaganda would ignore these basic facts.

And if your talking about Yugoslavia as an empire, then you should know 70% of Serbs resent Yugoslavia.
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Default Re: Among Czechs and Poles, same missile shield, differing sense of threat

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Originally Posted by Loorberitega Pärjatu View Post
Wrong:

A dictator "elected" by more than 80% of voters....

My dear friend, in Soviet Union all the soviets (councils) had 99,9% support always. Belarus is now like a Soviet-nostalgia paradise. You can go and live there if you want but people with common sense want to get very far from that kind of sh**.
My dear friend, Estonia is an independent and internationally recognized country (thanks God), so why do you care so much about what kind of government Belarus has?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loorberitega Pärjatu View Post
It's the bitterness of lost empires that Serbs and Russians share.
I for myself do not care which kind of government Serbia or Macedonia have, it is their own matter.

Last edited by Marcus Marulus; Sunday, May 25th, 2008 at 19:25.
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