Macedonians Won’t Give Up Name for NATO

[Ostrogorski]

Originally Posted by agamemnon

What about this senario for the future (With the help of USA) : Greater Albania, Greater <<Macedonia>> (including Agean Macedonia), And the Muslim state of Thrace (including patrs of Bulgaria and Greece).

More something like this:

[agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

More something like this:

They should also rename their capital citys as : Clintonia, Contoliza and so on.....

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by agamemnon

They should also rename their capital citys as : Clintonia, Contoliza and so on.....

Isn't there only one capital city?

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by vaskar

People there have been told that are the descendants of Alexander the Great.

Who has been 'telling' them?

Originally Posted by vaskar

However, that is not the case, since ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

You know it's not that simple.

Originally Posted by vaskar

(not slavic)

No, because the Slavs arrived long after the fall of Macedon. Greeks will often use this as evidence as to why todays ethnic Macedonians cannot be related to those of antiquity.

Macedonians never claim not to be, at least part, of Slavic origin and have never claimed the ancient Macedonians were Slavs (although some national mystics have tried to show ancient Macedonian influence in the modern language).

Originally Posted by vaskar

In fact i cant understand how a nation can have a title that represents its unity since the word macedonia is a greek word (means the land that is located northwards).

And the name Russia is supposedly of Norse origins.

Originally Posted by vaskar

I think there would not be such a conflicion if it was only for the name.

Yeah, sure. Whatever you say.

Originally Posted by vaskar

as a matter of fact people are convinced that they are the ancestors of Alexander

The people know they are of part ancient extraction. This is not something completely unbelievable. On the other hand, it is when some Greeks claim they are the exact people as those of antiquity.

Originally Posted by vaskar

and there are everywhere in fyrom statues of Alexander the Great.

As far as I know, there are only one or two which have been donated by Macedonian expats.

Originally Posted by vaskar

Also people keep a hostile stance towards Greece.

Do you really blame them? After the trade embargo, vetos and such I think it's more than fair to to resent such a government, especially a neighboring one.

The same government that denies their families just across the border many basic civil rights you or I might to take for granted.

Originally Posted by vaskar

see this Greek Lie: Modern Greeks are Descended from the Ancient Greeks by Risto Stefov

He is to us what Dimosthenis Liakopoulos is for you. He does, however, make a few very good points.

Originally Posted by vaskar

So, it is not only because of the name. Is just because somebody is trying to steal your past, your history, your identity.

We cannot steal your identity because our identity formed independently in a process very much like the other Balkan peoples'.

Originally Posted by vaskar

In a few words the whole story is a nonsense.

You don't say.

Originally Posted by vaskar

There is not a single clue indicating that ancient Macedonians were Slavs and not a single clue that ancient Macedonians were speaking in Slav.

I've already addressed this, but... this is not a commonly held belief nor is it taught in Macedonian schools.

Originally Posted by vaskar

I think that some people living there apparently have macedonian (greek) origins but we are not talking about origins but history.

Origins, history and identity all overlap.

Originally Posted by vaskar

if fyrom is recognised as Macedonia then in 100 years everybody will know about the Slav Alexander the Great and his huge achievements.

Hardly. You guys have made sure nothing of the sort will ever happen. And again, this is not something the Republic of Macedonia is attempting to achieve.

The Republic of Macedonia is attempting to build up the country to a standard acceptable in Europe and indeed of what is expected of a modern country. For us, it is not really a matter of history or who was what, but rather to protect our sovereignty and advance in the world.

Originally Posted by vaskar

i will make it simple macedonia is a greek word with a greek meaning. Find another word to name your country.

The etymology of the word itself is completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Superstar

Officially, since WW2, the country currently known as FYROM was called Macedonia.

This depends on your definition of "official".

The country's constitutional name is the Republic of Macedonia. Most countries have recognized it as such and use the full name instead of the common name (simply "Macedonia") to avoid ambiguity.

The name FYROM is temporary and it's purpose is just that: to serve as a temporary name for the country in the UN until an agreement has been made between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece.

Originally Posted by Superstar

Maybe the country should be called "New Macedonia"

As opposed to "Old Macedonia" in Greece, a group of peripheries renamed to Macedonia in the past 20-odd years?

Originally Posted by agamemnon

The vast majority of the Greek population had no idea that there was an area in Jugoslavia called Macedonia.

Is that why Greek schoolbooks (pre-90s) referred to the country as Macedonia?

Originally Posted by agamemnon

Can you please tell us what teachers teach , and history books say about the history of FYROM at your scools?

There's a lot of focus on modern history (i.e. the partisan movement during WWII.) Ancient history is mostly about Egypt, Rome, etc. while a small portion is allocated to Macedonia. Alexander's Macedonians are referred to as a distant ancient peoples who are an important chapter in the history of the country. I doubt you'll find a textbook that says today's Macedonians are directly related to the ancient peoples. They do usually make strong connection between the medieval Slavs in the region and today's people.

Originally Posted by Superstar

we were never told that we were descendants from Alexander.

Because he and his kingdom were already a part of our rich oral tradition.

Originally Posted by Ostrogorski

Macedonia could enter the union with Serbia, in that case we could join forces and fight the American backed Albanians with the help of Russia a lot easier. Macedonians could keep their identity and autonomy without problem.

At the risk of sounding like a traitor to my fellow countrymen I agree with Ostrogorski. A union with Serbia could very well be what saves the European character of the country.

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

Okay, Hegumen, all your neighbours say: "there are some historical inaccuracies in your national myth".
So tell me, isn't it possible really having some inaccuracies?

As an example, I have had some doubts in the past: "May be we are wrong, may be they are really Macedonians. May be, my grandfather lied me claiming that he is Bulgarian from Macedonia and the population there was Bulgarian".

I've searched a lot of non-Bulgarian and not-Yugo info about that problem.
And finally my conclusion is: Macedonian nation descends from the Bulgarian.

I even read an Albanian book (one of them can write...there's an advance so)
It was the most disguisting, satanising Slavs, book I have read. But still take a look what it says about the early Tito times:
The albanians in Kosovo were driven to declare themselves as Shiptars, something different from the Albanians. But the pressure can not be compared to what have been the Bulgarians in Eastern Macedonia through,in order to declare themselves as Macedonians.

So let's summarise what do the others think:

Serbs: We leave the idea of South Serbia. It's predominately Bulgarian area, but still there are some historical Serbian lands somewhere around.

Greeks: We do not give a f*ck what that is. But definately, it's not the ancient Macedonia.

albanians: We do not differ these Slavic tribes. It was Bulgarian 50 years ago. It's Macedonian now. But it will be ours in 20 years.

Croats: Of course we support Macedonia. We support everything non-Serbian. Eh, there's something irregular there, but we're not worried, on the Balkans everything is irregular.

Bulgarians: There's no such thing like a Macedonian nation. My grandma/grandpa/cousin/uncle is from Macedonia. They are all Bulgarians.

USA: Macedonia? Ummmm? Ammmm? I think it's an important factor for the peace in Western Africa

And my personal opinion: Of course there is Macedonian nation right now.
It's neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian. But the mythology which is it based on is absolutely ridiculous.

What I say is: Since the forming of the Balkan nations (about 1800) till 1944, Macedonians were a part of the Bulgarian nation

In medieval times Macedonia was contested between Greeks and Bulgarians.
Ohrid was a Bulgarian capital. Samuil was a Bulgarian tsar. Basil II was the Bulgarian slayer.

The ancient Macedonians and Thracians were hellenized far before the Slavic invasion. May be some of them remained in what nowadays is Bulgaria and Macedonia, but they were culturally and lingually asimilated.

The DNA markers do not show significant differences between Serbia, Bulgaria and Macedonia. But even if they did I don't think they could be criteria about forming a nation (take Italy or Germany as an example).

But just like a friend of mine said: "You can not convince a Macedonian that he is Bulgarian. And do you know why - they are froward like Bulgarians"

[Superstar]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

The DNA markers do not show significant differences between Serbia, Bulgaria and Macedonia.

Just out of curiosity, what DNA markers are you talking about?

[Kan Yuvigi Asparukh]

Originally Posted by Superstar

Just out of curiosity, what DNA markers are you talking about?

Oh, don't listen to me. I meant the Y-DNA haplogroup markers

[Hegumen]

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

Okay, Hegumen, all your neighbours say: "there are some historical inaccuracies in your national myth".
So tell me, isn't it possible really having some inaccuracies?

Of course, that goes without saying. There isn't a single country whose national myths are not in some way... well, myths.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

As an example, I have had some doubts in the past: "May be we are wrong, may be they are really Macedonians. May be, my grandfather lied me claiming that he is Bulgarian from Macedonia and the population there was Bulgarian".

I've searched a lot of non-Bulgarian and not-Yugo info about that problem.
And finally my conclusion is: Macedonian nation descends from the Bulgarian.

If this were true, why would it matter? Our national identity is fully developed. Everything comes from something.

I believe the Exarchate accounts for Bulgarian character of Ottoman Macedonia.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

The albanians in Kosovo were driven to declare themselves as Shiptars, something different from the Albanians.

They are one and the same. Shqiptarët is just how they refer to themselves in Albanian.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

But the pressure can not be compared to what have been the Bulgarians in Eastern Macedonia through,in order to declare themselves as Macedonians.

Do you actually believe there was a Communist plot to create a brand new ethnicity? You'd be ignoring all the events and figures of the Macedonian national awakening in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

And my personal opinion: Of course there is Macedonian nation right now.
It's neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian. But the mythology which is it based on is absolutely ridiculous.

So? What's your beef? Do you really care that they believe something you consider ridiculous?

Originally Posted by Kan Yuvigi Asparukh

What I say is: Since the forming of the Balkan nations (about 1800) till 1944, Macedonians were a part of the Bulgarian nation

Most definitely not.