Northern Ireland Unionist Leader Meets With Prime Minister of Ireland

[Erasmus]

Originally Posted by Sektor

You mean United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland...yes,I know that,but I was thinking about independent Irish monarchy...

I found these:

The High Kings of Ireland
Stem of the Irish Nation, Heremon to Art Eanfhear

[Octillion]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Let us hope that the intransigence of Nationalists throughout Europe make it impossible the dissolution of the ethnic identities of the European peoples.

What you refer to here is out of context of the topic's discussion and quite beyond its scope.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

In all fairness, you cannot speak of intransigence of a people who are fighting for their freedom and their identity.

No true Nationalist can ever deny the Irish their right to reunion and total freedom. Anyone who labels himself a Nationalist and who denies their right to the Irish deserves a more terrible fate for his own nation.

Yes I can, in all fairness. Irish Nationalists are not denied their freedom or identity in Northern Ireland: they can vote, stand for elections, freely express their views and opinions in speech or writing, own property, earn a living, have freedom of movement, practise their religion, etc.; indeed they have the full civil rights of any UK citizen. They can also teach, learn, and speak the Irish language and practise other elements of Irish culture if they so chose. How are Irish Nationalists denied their rights or freedom or identity within Northern Ireland and the UK? In what are they denied their freedom, rights, or identity?

And if Irish Nationalists/Irish Republicans cannot be denied their right to reunion with the Irish Republic, so too Ulster Unionists/British Loyalists/British Nationalists cannot be denied their moral and legal right to remain in union with Great Britain and to remain loyal subjects of the British Crown, as is their given wish, as denizens of northeastern Ireland and those six counties of Ulster that comprise Northern Ireland. Irish Nationalism and Irish Nationalists are not inherently more right, morally or legally, than Ulster/Irish Unionism or Ulster/Irish Unionists. Hence, the intransigence of rights and the intractability of the situation.

(You may also note I am aware that historic Ulster is comprised of nine counties, three of which are in the Republic. I am also aware that Meath once comprised a separate Irish province that included contemporary Cos Meath and Westmeath and parts of several other counties, but was incorporated into Leinster. Matters change over time, including Irish provinces and their borders.)

A Few Acres of Snow: very interesting quote from Patrick Pearse.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Octillion

And if Irish Nationalists/Irish Republicans cannot be denied their right to reunion with the Irish Republic, so too Ulster Unionists/British Loyalists/British Nationalists cannot be denied their moral and legal right to remain in union with Great Britain and to remain loyal subjects of the British Crown, as is their given wish, as denizens of northeastern Ireland and those six counties of Ulster that comprise Northern Ireland.

Yes, no-one can deny them that right. They should have right to remain subjects of the British crown, I agree. The best method for them achieving this goal is moving to Britain. So why don't they all pack their luggages and move overseas, to Britain, if they like Britain, the Queen and Union Jack so much?

Originally Posted by Octillion

Irish Nationalism and Irish Nationalists are not inherently more right, morally or legally, than Ulster/Irish Unionism or Ulster/Irish Unionists. Hence, the intransigence of rights and the intractability of the situation.

No offence, but this is load of nonsense.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by prometheus

Yes, no-one can deny them that right. They should have right to remain subjects of the British crown, I agree. The best method for them achieving this goal is moving to Britain. So why don't they all pack their luggages and move overseas, to Britain, if they like Britain, the Queen and Union Jack so much?

How would you like this rule to be applied to the Croats in Bosnia?

What does the future of Bosnia look like?

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by A Few Acres of Snow

How would you like this rule to be applied to the Croats in Bosnia?

What does the future of Bosnia look like?

A ridiculous comparison. Croats have been living in Bosnia since long before Turks came, since 7th century. Later on they were conquered by Turks, some of them converted to Islam and got Turkified (only as regerds their religion and customs, but they retained the Croatian language).

I didn't say the descendants of the Ulster planters should be expelled by force. If they accept Ireland as their country, they should be given opportunity to live their. I only said that if they are so enamoured with living undaer the rule of Britain and Queen so much, so why don't they go to England?

[Octillion]

Originally Posted by prometheus

Yes, no-one can deny them that right. They should have right to remain subjects of the British crown, I agree. The best method for them achieving this goal is moving to Britain. So why don't they all pack their luggages and move overseas, to Britain, if they like Britain, the Queen and Union Jack so much?



No offence, but this is load of nonsense.

No offence, but you don't know what you're talking/writing about.

A community that has been in Ireland for up to 400 years is not about to move out because they are not liked by some of their fellow denizens. Ulster Protestants are in Ireland to stay, whether the Nationalists like it or not, and as Unionists form an electoral and demographic majority in the northeast of the island. The fact is that Unionists as an electoral majority in the part of Ireland that they live in want to remain as part of the United Kingdom, that is within the Union (that is why they are called Unionists), regard themselves as British, quite rightly, and nothing but an electoral majority of Nationalists will end the Union between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. This, incidentally, is not likely to happen within your or my lifetimes. The Union is constitutionally legal and in statutory force, and Northern Ireland will remain a division of the United Kingdom while it is.

So I repeat, you don't know what you are talking about. No offence.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Octillion

The Union is constitutionally legal and in force.

The so-called "legality" (not only in Ireland, but elsewhere in the world as well) is more often than not determined by military boots...

[Octillion]

Originally Posted by prometheus

A ridiculous comparison. Croats have been living in Bosnia since long before Turks came, since 7th century. Later on they were conquered by Turks, some of them converted to Islam and got Turkified (only as regerds their religion and customs, but they retained the Croatian language).

I didn't say the descendants of the Ulster planters should be expelled by force. If they accept Ireland as their country, they should be given opportunity to live their. I only said that if they are so enamoured with living undaer the rule of Britain and Queen so much, so why don't they go to England?

I don't think it is ridiculous at all, and you only betray your own prejudice in describing it thus. Ireland is somewhat balkanised as a country. Ulster Protestants have been living in Ulster, in the north of Ireland, since the 17th century, including many in the three Ulster counties within the Republic which were excluded from Northern Ireland at the time the island was partitioned (which is another story). No, you didn't say that they should be expelled by force, but by saying that they should leave their homeland of centuries, you implied it. As for living under British rule on their part of the island of Ireland, why should Unionists have to sacrifice their homeland in order to remain within the United Kingdom?

[Octillion]

Originally Posted by prometheus

The so-called "legality" (not only in Ireland, but elsewhere in the world as well) is more often than not determined by military boots...

But not in the instance of Northern Ireland: Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom by the will of the majority of its people and it will remain a division of the Kingdom and part of her Majesty's Realms while the majority of its people want it so.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by prometheus

A ridiculous comparison. Croats have been living in Bosnia since long before Turks came, since 7th century. Later on they were conquered by Turks, some of them converted to Islam and got Turkified (only as regerds their religion and customs, but they retained the Croatian language).

I think we can all agree the comparison of the England’s role in Ireland to the Turks role in the Balkans is of almost no value. The relationship between the Serbs, Croats and Bosnian Muslims is far closer to the Irish and British case. The frontier between the Roman Catholic world and the Eastern Orthodox world ran through your part of the Balkans in the same way that the frontier between the Protestant and Roman Catholic worlds runs through Ireland.

Originally Posted by Octillion

A community that has been in Ireland for up to 400 years is not about to move out because they are not liked by some of their fellow denizens. Ulster Protestants are in Ireland to stay, whether the Nationalists like it or not, and as Unionists form an electoral and demographic majority in the northeast of the island. The fact is that Unionists as an electoral majority in the part of Ireland that they live in want to remain as part of the United Kingdom, that is within the Union (that is why they are called Unionists), regard themselves as British, quite rightly, and nothing but an electoral majority of Nationalists will end the Union between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. This, incidentally, is not likely to happen within your or my lifetimes. The Union is constitutionally legal and in statutory force, and Northern Ireland will remain a division of the United Kingdom while it is.

It not an abstract argument for me at all, I have had this conversation with close relatives around the dinner table for years and I can tell you things are going in the right direction. More and more people can see that sharing a national government with the rest of the Irish people would be the best choice for northern Protestants. Tony Blair has done more for Irish unity than some of the men given monuments in Dublin!

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Octillion

As for living under British rule on their part of the island of Ireland, why should Unionists have to sacrifice their homeland in order to remain within the United Kingdom?

Ireland is not their homeland.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Octillion

But not in the instance of Northern Ireland: Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom by the will of the majority of its people and it will remain a division of the Kingdom and part of her Majesty's Realms while the majority of its people want it so.

Yes, but how was this so-called majority achieved? In 1920 the island was cut into two pieces, although it hadn't been divided during the British rule over the whole of Ireland. A piece of country was cut, that was mostly inhabited by the descendants of planters, though no preceding division existed. There was no particular "legality" about that, the only support of any supposed legality being the British military might. And this kind of "legality" persists even until today. Britain is militarily and politically more powerful than Ireland and by means of its power it detains the "legal" occupation of that piece of land.

Yes, you may point at several referenda being carried out in the Northern Ireland, in which the majority was in favour of the Union with Britain, but how was that majority achieved in the first place? How "legal" was the act of partition itself?

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Panonski

Ireland is not their homeland.

Originally Posted by prometheus

Yes, but how was this so-called majority achieved? In 1920 the island was cut into two pieces, although it hadn't been divided during the British rule over the whole of Ireland. A piece of country was cut, that was mostly inhabited by the descendants of planters, though no preceding division existed. There was no particular "legality" about that, the only support of any supposed legality being the British military might. And this kind of "legality" persists even until today. Britain is militarily and politically more powerful than Ireland and by means of its power it detains the "legal" occupation of that piece of land.

Yes, you may point at several referenda being carried out in the Northern Ireland, in which the majority was in favour of the Union with Britain, but how was that majority achieved in the first place? How "legal" was the act of partition itself?

What is it about Ireland that attracts such strongly held opinions based on so little personal experience? Feel free to discuss the topic and debate it but there is such a thing as being "more Monarchist than the King, more Catholic than the Pope".

[Octillion]

Originally Posted by A Few Acres of Snow

I think we can all agree the comparison of the England’s role in Ireland to the Turks role in the Balkans is of almost no value. The relationship between the Serbs, Croats and Bosnian Muslims is far closer to the Irish and British case. The frontier between the Roman Catholic world and the Eastern Orthodox world ran through your part of the Balkans in the same way that the frontier between the Protestant and Roman Catholic worlds runs through Ireland.




It not an abstract argument for me at all, I have had this conversation with close relatives around the dinner table for years and I can tell you things are going in the right direction. More and more people can see that sharing a national government with the rest of the Irish people would be the best choice for northern Protestants. Tony Blair has done more for Irish unity than some of the men given monuments in Dublin!

I'm quite sure it is not an abstract argument for you and for those in your part of the world and I'm pleased to read that you feel matters are headed in the right direction. If a majority of the northern Protestant community want a power-sharing arrangement with Dublin and they vote for it, then naturally that is what they will get and if they are happy with it, good luck to them. I am arguing from a far more abstract position and mostly from a legalistic one. Good luck.

[Octillion]

Originally Posted by Panonski

Ireland is not their homeland.

Northeastern Ireland is most certainly their homeland and they have every right to be there. They have made it their homeland by settling it.