"Northwest European racial type".

[Visigodo]

From “Races. A Study of the Problems of Race Formation in Man”. C.C. Coon, S.M. Garn, J.B. Birdsell. 1950.

North-west European. - Most of Scandinavia, much of the British Isles, Northern France, the Benelux countries, and northwest Germany is inhabited by a population characterized by medium to tall stature, medium build, brown air, mixed or blue eyes, light skin, straight to wavy hair of moderate abundance, and facial features intermediate between the fine chiselling of the Nordic or Mediterranean and the broader, fleshier Alpine. As types in this population one finds Nordics, Mediterraneans, and stocky, large-headed, broad-face, often hairy individuals who may have such paleanthropic characters as large teeth and heavy brow ridges. This third type apparently recapitulates in some degree the pre-agricultural population of this region. Western Irish, Scots, Norwegians from the central coast, Swedes from near Goteberg, and certain other local groups deviate strongly in the direction of this type. The northwest European race is also found as the characteristic form of the major breeding unit in the United States and Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and white South-Africa. The white American mean falls so close to it that no further designation is needed.

Check how Coon was classified himself as North-west European:

C. Coon:


Plate (Middle left):



Interesting to read the definition of Nordic:

Nordic.- A blond phase of Mediterranean. In no population is blondism complete. In the eastern valleys of Norway and parts of Sweden, where the extreme is reached, probably no more that 50 per cent are wholly nordic in skin, hair, and eyes. Nordics are concentrated in Scandinavia, Finland, Northern Germany, the Netherlands, and the British Isles, as well as in areas overseas settled by peoples from these regions. Although it is common as a type, few populations in Europe or elsewhere can be called Nordic in the strict sense. Most which other authors have called Nordic fall into our Northwest European category.

Nordic:

[Agrippa]

I think that such views are far away from reality and its a trial to undermine the idea of a strong Nordid element in the North as such.

[Exeter]

I think it makes perfect sense. A racial group is an extended family and types are in any case just tendencies.

[Menydh]

Doesn't this imply that the expansion of nordo-germanics in most regions/countries assumed "nordicized", was simply the superposition of a small adstratrum over the local substratum?

This would be consequent with how more ancient expansions took place. In the full picture, more of a aculturization process than a sub-racial fusion.

If so, it leaves many questions on the air.

[Exeter]

Why do you assume all the people who expanded into new territories were Nordid in the strict/narrow sense.

There are some problems with this approach. I think this is a simplied way of seeing things because I don't really see how Britain is Northwest European to the extent of Norway, although they did write "much of Britain" and "most of Scandinavia". I believe Anglo-Saxon writers exaggerate the Northwest European element in the British Isles and underestimate the Mediterranid and other elements. I guess that Coon et al meant that these types in the region are related and from the same (or similar) genetic origin, even though they belong to different physical types. So classifications would in that case be geographical because I think there are people outside (even far away) from Northwestern Europe who look "Northwest European".

Visigodo, do you have the other plates in this book? The Nordid is not the best example, especially in profile.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Doesn't this imply that the expansion of nordo-germanics in most regions/countries assumed "nordicized", was simply the superposition of a small adstratrum over the local substratum?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Why do you assume all the people who expanded into new territories were Nordid in the strict/narrow sense.

I don't assume that they were all Nordid. But that detail was not important for my question, at least on a first stage.

Still, Nordid or not, the question remains if their spread was not more in the form of small dominant groups over local populations who also imposed their language in many cases.

[Menydh]

I have split the last posts and merged them into a new thread in the Politics forum under: Is it justifiable the expansion of one group in detriment of another?.

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Why do you assume all the people who expanded into new territories were Nordid in the strict/narrow sense.

There are some problems with this approach. I think this is a simplied way of seeing things because I don't really see how Britain is Northwest European to the extent of Norway, although they did write "much of Britain" and "most of Scandinavia". I believe Anglo-Saxon writers exaggerate the Northwest European element in the British Isles and underestimate the Mediterranid and other elements. I guess that Coon et al meant that these types in the region are related and from the same (or similar) genetic origin, even though they belong to different physical types. So classifications would in that case be geographical because I think there are people outside (even far away) from Northwestern Europe who look "Northwest European".

Visigodo, do you have the other plates in this book? The Nordid is not the best example, especially in profile.

Well, there are more plates but can not remember at this momemt if there is some more examples of Nordic types. I made the scan some days ago before leaving home. Now I am far away somewhere in south-east Asia for working purpose. I will check when arriving home but it will be after two weeks.

The purpose of this thread was to show how Coon was classified himself as "North-west European". Just as a interesting curiosity.

The comment you have made can have sense, specially talking about Ireland, Scotland and Walles but less talking about England. I have brought with me one work from Lahovary (great anthropologists unfortunately not very very well-known), "Le sang des peuples" where he try to demostrate through blood group analysis the that among Irish, Scotish and Welsh people there is a strong "Archaic Mediterranid" (Paleoatlantid??) component obviously mixed with "Nordid" elements. He call this type: "Type Méditerranéen occidental nº II" and is common among Irish and Scotish. Average combination would be something like:

AB% 2.7 A% 32.7 B% 10.1 O% 54.4

Some Welsh people are something different and have a higher % of Blood Group B (14 to 16%) that is quite high in western Europe).
For example among Welsh, Mynydd Hiraethog, the combination would be like:

AB% 6.2 A% 24.8 B% 16.5 0% 56.2.

Among English people this component is very less strong and they are more close to the "Nord-ouest" or "Nordique" (North-Western or Nordid) blood group combination type. For example english people from London show this combination:

AB% 3.2 A% 43.8 B% 8.5 O% 44.4

Very, very similar combination as Germans from Schleswig-Holstein, Norwegians from Trondelag-center, Americans from Utah (Matson, Piper source) or in general Anglo-saxon Americans (Taylor, Vaughan source) have. The last combination is the most "typical" blood group combination among pred. North-Western or Nordics populations. A lot of Swedish population they have similar combination but there is a slight increase of A%, according to Lahovary because lappoid influences, specially noticiable when we move to the North.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Exeter

I guess that Coon et al meant that these types in the region are related and from the same (or similar) genetic origin, even though they belong to different physical types.

I guess so.

BTW, is the blood group analyses a good element for study of populations?

I heard in a TV program the "basques, norwegians and senegalians had same blood group" but I suspected the program to be one of those "PC" and attemping to show that "human races do not exist"

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

I guess so.

BTW, is the blood group analyses a good element for study of populations?

I heard in a TV program the "basques, norwegians and senegalians had same blood group" but I suspected the program to be one of those "PC" and attemping to show that "human races do not exist"

The study of the blood groups in anthropology has his importance but they are not the last word. In my opinion they can serve to try to solve certain problems that the physical anthropology alone might not solve. The same thing happens with the genetic studies. Fodder that as a whole the studies of physical anthropology close to the genetic studies and the study of the series of blood groups can be used in a joint way, let's say that they might be complementary disciplines. Previously numerous studies were done on the topic of the blood groups and the bibliography that Lahovary gives is very big what shows the importance that gave scientists to this matter in the past. Curiously was a Jewish Polish scientist Dr. Hirszfeld who began to study of this matter and many Jewish scientists gave importance to these studies (and I am sure that still today Jews are giving importance to the study of the blood groups – and also to the genetic studies). There is nobody more interested than the Jews in knowing the differences that exist between them and the Goym. Lahovary was saying about the matter:

“Si elles ont permis d’établir sur des bases scientifiques et absolument objectives, la spécificité des divers groupes ethniques ou raciaux du monde, on voit qu’on ne saurait soupçonner cette méthode,- qui paraît avoir été initiée et développé surtout par des savants israélites, - de devoir quoi que ce soit au « racisme » hitlérien. Il n’en est pas moins vrai qu’on peut en tirer des conclusions fort importantes, confirmées par la génétique moderne, qui impliquent une fixité, une stabilité très grande des types physiques ou psycho-physiques des diverses variétés humaines, ainsi qu’une part dominant de l’hérédité par rapport au milieu, dont l’influence,- ainsi que le prouve la spécificité bio sanguine, quelle que soit l’ambiance, comme on le verra plus loin,- doit être comme ayant été souvent exagérée. »


This importance that Jews have given to the study of the blood makes me think that the study of the blood groups can be more important than a simple sight could seem. (Lundman for example also took it seriously enough, he was not Jew of course, many non-Jew also give great importance to the blood group studies). What also is true is that at the mass media level always will happens that they will say that this does not have the minor importance since the races do not exist and they would like to try to minimize any difference between races. It does not surprise me that this could steady in programs of TE-LEVI-SION. On the other hand to say that the Norwegians, Senegalians and Basques belong all to the same blood group is something totally false. To that group they belong, to the B, to the AB or to O… A? No population in this planet belongs only to one and simple blood group. Even to level of series of blood groups the differences between Basques and Norwegians opposite to the Senegalians are clear.

Average series among Baskids: AB% 1.6 A% 38.4 B% 3.9 O% 56

Norwegians, Trondelag: AB% 4 A% 43 B% 9.7 O% 42

Blacks from Senegal: AB% 5 A% 22.4 B% 29,2 O% 43.2

Check the balance among A and O in the Norwegian series. How the Basques they have a very low % of blood group B (very characteristic among baskids) and a high % of blood group O. Among blacks from Senegal there is a high % of blood group B and quite low % of blood group A. The differences are obvious.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Visigodo

Average series among Baskids: AB% 1.6 A% 38.4 B% 3.9 O% 56

Norwegians, Trondelag: AB% 4 A% 43 B% 9.7 O% 42

Blacks from Senegal: AB% 5 A% 22.4 B% 29,2 O% 43.2

Check the balance among A and O in the Norwegian series. How the Basques they have a very low % of blood group B (very characteristic among baskids) and a high % of blood group O. Among blacks from Senegal there is a high % of blood group B and quite low % of blood group A. The differences are obvious.

Ha! What I suspected! PC BS!
Now that I remember well the TV program said that Norwegians Baskes and senengalians had all about 30% 0 ... which still is inacurate.

[Amorsite]

Although it is common as a type, few populations in Europe or elsewhere can be called Nordic in the strict sense. Most which other authors have called Nordic fall into our Northwest European category.

Most accurate. Nice to see how Coon in the end came to the same conclusion I did and abandoned his belief of Sweden, the Southeast of the British Isles and other areas of NW Europe being predominantly Nordic as he stated in TROE. Northwestern Europe= Bruenn/UP mixed with other minorities including Nordic.

Fiona Philips, Lena Headey and Emma Thompson would be Northwest European which is barely equivalent with Bruenn

Philips


Headey



Thompson

[Exeter]

I don't think you have been in Sweden.

Originally Posted by Amorsite

Most accurate. Nice to see how Coon in the end came to the same conclusion I did and abandoned his belief of Sweden, the Southeast of the British Isles and other areas of NW Europe being predominantly Nordic as he stated in TROE.

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

Most accurate. Nice to see how Coon in the end came to the same conclusion I did and abandoned his belief of Sweden, the Southeast of the British Isles and other areas of NW Europe being predominantly Nordic as he stated in TROE. Northwestern Europe= Bruenn/UP mixed with other minorities including Nordic.

Please, Amorsite. What a nice club you have. Coon who refuted most his works anyway as the genetics came into picture. Besides like said, Argentinians have no credibility in European affairs and very little in Northern Europe's etnogenesis.

Keep worshipping Coon, maybe you someday convince us the world is flat too. After all prominent scientist told us so in the 13th century.