Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races

[Galaico]

When speaking about the Mediterranid sub-race, it can be divided into four pure sub-types: The West Mediterranid, the Atlanto-Mediterranid, the East Mediterranid, and the Pontid.

According to Coon, the Mediterranid people were all of Neolithic stock.

The Gracile Mediterranids (including West and East?):

The earliest Neolithic invaders of the southern fringe of Europe were brunet Mediterraneans of small to moderate stature and moderate head size. Unaltered representatives of this type or group of types may be found today from Crete to Portugal.

The Atlanto-Mediterranids:

Toward the end of the Neolithic period, the western Mediterranean countries were invaded by seafarers of a tall, exceptionally long-headed Mediterranean variety; some of these invaders passed through the Straits of Gibraltar, whence they also invaded the British Isles and Scandinavia. The accompanying pictures show modern derivatives of
this sea-borne type.

The Pontids:

Along the northern and western shores of the Black Sea are found, among other populations, brunet Mediterraneans of a generalized type, called Pontic by the Russian anthropologists, who are usually of medium to tall stature and who seem related on the one hand to the Atlanto-Mediterraneans and on the other to the long-faced Mediter-
ranean prototype of Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Inland from the Black Sea shores they are found sporadically in Russia, Poland, and the countries along the upper course of the Danube. They also seem to form an early population level in Serbia and Albania.
Their precise archaeological history has not yet been traced, and their relationship to the Danubian invaders of central Europe at the beginning of the local Neolithic is unknown. They do not, however, conform closely to the physical type of the early Danubians as known to us by a small series of skeletal remains. Much more work needs to be done in southeastern Europe before their historical position and relationships can be established.

Nowadays genetics allow us to know the origin of different populations. So some of the supposed Neolithic populations of for example Spain or Italy, show to have an almost unaltered Paleolithic origin, though being mainly Mediterranid. So could some kind of specialisation process establish the following path?

Cromagnid => Atlantomediterranid => Western (Gracile) Mediterranid

What about the Nordid sub-race? According to Coon, it was a Mediterranid depigmented type.

The Nordic race is a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean racial stock. It is probably a composite race made up of two or more basic Mediterranean strains, depigmented separately or in conjunction by a progressive evolutionary process. As has been demonstrated on plates 9 and 10, it is impossible, as some European
anthropologists believe, to derive a Nordic directly from a dolichocephalic Upper Palaeolithic ancestor of Brünn or Crô-Magnon type. Reduction of these overgrown races produces a result which is quite un-Nordic morphologically as well as in constitutional type. It is the author's thesis that the Nordic race in Europe was caused by a blending of the early Danubian Mediterranean strain with the later Corded element. At the
present time both Corded and Danubian elements may be isolated, while other Nordics preserve the blended form. Nordics in eastern Europe, Asia, and North Africa may have been formed by separate recombinations or simple depigmentations of comparable Mediterranean strains, or by invasions of these regions from an European or West Asiatic depigmentation center.

Did the Nordid sub-race follow a similar but parallel process to the Atlanto-Mediterranid one?

Cromagnid => Skandonordid

Did both the Nordid and Mediterranid sub-races have a common ancestor that was already not a Cro-Magnid?

............................................................| => Skandonordid
Cromagnid => Dolicocephalic Leptophorm => |
............................................................| => Atlantomediterranid

Or as Coon says, did the Nordid sub-race descend from Mediterranids?

Cromagnid => Atlantomediterranid => Skandonordid

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Nowadays genetics allow us to know the origin of different populations. So some of the supposed Neolithic populations of for example Spain or Italy, show to have an almost unaltered Paleolithic origin

I don't think that this is the case in Italy. Or at least not throughout Italy.

Nordics in eastern Europe, Asia, and North Africa may have been formed by separate recombinations or simple depigmentations of comparable Mediterranean strains, or by invasions of these regions from an European or West Asiatic depigmentation center.

Couldn't this have happened to many Nordics in western Europe too?

When I look at the German population, in many I find something that I don't quite relate to western types. Although this is probably more visible in the Baltid and Alpinid elements of Germany.

I believe that the British used to call Huns to the Germans. Maybe it was due to this perception?

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Did the Nordid sub-race follow a similar but parallel process to the Atlanto-Mediterranid one?

Cromagnid => Skandonordid

Did both the Nordid and Mediterranid sub-races have a common ancestor that was already not a Cro-Magnid?

............................................................| => Skandonordid
Cromagnid => Dolicocephalic Leptophorm => |
............................................................| => Atlantomediterranid

Or as Coon says, did the Nordid sub-race descend from Mediterranids?

Cromagnid => Atlantomediterranid => Skandonordid

Lothar Kilian (a really excellent scholar) explain in his work “Zum Ursprung der Indogermanen” that during the Upper Paleolithic, the totality of the population of Europe was formed basically by two basic types: a) Brünn and Combe Capelle, that we must consider of narrow forms, and b) the Cro-magnon and Oberkassel types, having much more robust and broad forms, among them, undoubtedly some blends were produced. This point would constitute the first differentiation. Later the second process of differentiation was produced: The depigmentation of both types in the North. By this way the fair Dalofaelids and Nordids were formed in the Central and Nordic Mitteleuropaand in the Southern Europe and North Africa the Berberids and the Mediterranids.

In the following illustration Killian offers a schematic representation of this process:




In consequence, the place of origin of the Nordid race would have been in Mitteleuropa and it would be necessary to say the same for the Dalofaelid race. His vicinity provoked with the course of the time that constants blends were produced among them, which led to the formation of mixed Nordid-Dalofaelids types. The case of Mediterranids and Berberids turns out to be analogous. As for the formation of the <<brachycephalic axis> of v. Eickstedt :





that can be traced from the end of the last glaciation, has led to the formulation of numerous hypotheses, always in relation with the Alpinid race, which they have been catalogued rather well by Coon. Nevertheless, we cannot approach here this question since not concierne directly to our topic but Agrippa has a reasonable theory about the formation of the Alpinids from Cromagnids.

Both extreme forms can be found from the Upper Paleolithic, though still, partially, in archaic forms. Both forms are for the whole Central and Western Europe, coming up to the north of Africa (see illustration 52). Combe-Capelle's finds in France (illustration 53), as well as those of Brünn (illustration 54,) and Predmost (illustration 55,) in Moravia are typical the narrow forms, whereas the broad forms would be represented in Cro-Magnon's deposits in France (illustration 53 and 54, centre), Oberkassel, near Bonn, in Germany (illustration 53, c) and Afalou bou Rhummel the illustration 52 (+), illustration 55

The Nordid crania would have been formed already in the Aurigniacian times. To this period would belong Unter-Wisternitz's finds in the southern Moravia, Galley-Hill in England, Brünn (ilust. 54, and of Combe-Capelle (ilust. 53, d). The observable differences are concerned exclusively to a major or minor archaism, which would indicate former relations also with the cranium of Predmost, Moravia, (ilust. 53 to; 55, I centre). The Nordid race would have been formed in the Aurigniacian times in the Central and Nordic Europe (evidently this means the Nordic Mitteleuropa) from more primitive forms as those of Combe-Capelle, Brünn and Predmost, under the hard selective effects of the last glaciation. Therefore the Nordid race would be autochthonous of this territory.

Kilian wrote: In our opinion, the Nordic race would be more related to the Mediterranean race that with the Dalofaelid. The fundamental proof would be the practical inability to differentiate both races from his skeletons. Both races originated from the same type of narrow forms. Part of this original type would have suffered a process of depigmentation during the last glaciation in the surroundings of the ices. Therefore, the Nordid race would have originated in the Northern Europe, from this original dark type of narrow forms, which was kept inaltered in the south, and that today we know as Mediterranean race. A parallel process would be suffered by the broad Cromagnid type, whose northern branch was depigmented whereas the southern groups would be kept with the dark original pigmentation. This process would have marked the separation of the fair Dalofaelids of the dark Berberids men(ilust. 64). The genetic relation among the narrow forms and among the broad ones would have a primary character, being the later depigmentation behalf of each of them a secondary process. In consequence, the fair narrow type (the Nordid race) must have had a historical development more close to his dark brother (the Mediterranean race) than to the fair broad type (the Dalofaelid race). The transformation of the narrow types in broad and vice versa it should have produced after numerous mutations, since the differences that they present are too essential. On the contrary, the process of clarification of the skin, the hair and the eyes probably only it will have needed as a whole a few mutations.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Visigodo

Kilian wrote: In our opinion, the Nordic race would be more related to the Mediterranean race that with the Dalofaelid. The fundamental proof would be the practical inability to differentiate both races from his skeletons.

How exact (or inexact) is this statement?

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

How exact (or inexact) is this statement?

Is a good question but I think the statement is quite accurate.

It is really of special importance the problem of the differentiation of the Nordids from the Mediterranids from the skeletons but as Von Eickstedt affirms: <<the Nordic crania are not easy to differ from the Mediterranean ones, specially in the prehistoric material ...>>. There is a great consensus in this point in the majority of the anthropologists that I know. As Bañuelos wrote, for example: The Mediterranean human type has great similarity with the Nordic man, only they are not similar by the color of the hair, eyes and skin, since for the rest both races are slender, dolichocepalics with elongated and narrow face and long legs in relation to the trunk.

Two extreme examples of Gracil-Mediterranid and Nordid:




Compare features with broad faced Cromagnids (pigmented and depigmented). In my opinion even if they have different pigmentation both are clearly related anthropologically and is the same thing in the case of the two examples posted on top.




Example of Atlanto-Mediterranid and Nordid(Corded).



Another example of Atlanto-Mediterranean (left) and Nordid-Corded (right). If I do not say who is the A-M and who the Nordid I think is not so easy to know who is A-M and who is Nordid.



Females comparison:



The problem of the differentiation among the Nordid types and the Mediterranids ones in the osseous material has been manifested by Coon, who supports that: <<It can be shown that Sumerians who lived over five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia are almost identical in skull and face form with living Englishmen, and that predynastic Egyptian skulls can be matched both in a seventeenth century London plague pit, and in Neolithic cist-graves in Switzerland. More dolichocephalic whites or browns are very similar in head and face measurements and form. The Nordic race in the strict sense is merely a pigment phase of the Mediterranean>>

According to Kilian: In general, the Nordic type is stronger, possessing a few harder reliefs, though the transition between both types is fluid. If we had two cemeteries, one of which (A) belonged to a Nordid and different group (B) to Medierranids, there would no be too many difficulty at the moment of assigning A to the Nordid race and B to the Mediterranid one, but the same thing does not happen in the cases in which isolated remains appear. On the other hand, the great similarity among the Nordid types and the Mediterranids ones, not only one might, but it should conclude a common origin and, in consequence, the existence of a relationship. Everything make right this affirmation, who does not accept this fact is denying the validity of the racial science and, therefore, of the laws of the herency. Only we would have for determining the degree of relationship from the degree of similarity. Though this would turn out to be possible in some cases of formal parallelism but for the majority of the cases it is practically impossible.

I think Kilian is absolutely right when we compare Atlanto-Mediterranids or robust Mediterranids, for exemple, with Nordids proper but when we face Gracil-Mediterranids and Nordids the thing is different an is more easy to differentiate both type from osseous material. In this point Günther explain in some of his works the possible differences that can be found among Gracil-Mediterranids and Nordids.

[Menydh]

I thought of interest to add here this text posted by VG on a more recent thread.

Originally Posted by Visigodo

Well I think I can add something more and it is that the most archaic morphological type of the Mediterranean subrace is originally Upper Paleolithic (Gallery Hill, Combe Capell, Brünn -still I do not know why Coon call Brünn race to the Irish variety of the Dalfoaelid-Cromagnid race-) and referred as Atlanto-Mediterranean by Deniker first time. This type was at the begining exceptionally long-headed with great size of the brain-case and rugged bony construction. The face commonly long and massive, but it may be rather short, sometimes perhaps oftenest when bodily stature is below medium. The jaws nearly always deep and heavy according to Hooton.
Hooton again thought tha a variant of this Upper Palaeolithic type in which the face is short and broad with laterally jutting cheek bones ans squeare, flaring gonial (hinder jaw) angles is often identified as a modern Cromagnon type.
And let me say that the West-(gracil)-Mediterranid. Brunet, long-headed and delicate type ordinarly named Classic Mediterranean is in fact a reduced, refined, smaller-boned derivate of the massive dolicochephal Upper Paleolithic Atlanto-Mediterranid. Carleton Coon argue, there has been an evolutionary tendency toward a fineing down, almost and effeminization, of early forms of man discernible in many modern races, both in general body build and particularly in skeletal structure. I think even nowadays many Atlanto-Mediterranids have suffered partially (evolution, admixture?) this process without arriving to the ends that sometimes is possible to see in the more gracil, infantile and sometimes effeminate types of the West-(Gracil)-Mediterranean race.

http://forum.stirpes.net/showpost.ph...7&postcount=10

[Waarnemer]

The Mediterranean human type has great similarity with the Nordic man, only they are not similar by the color of the hair, eyes and skin, since for the rest both races are slender, dolichocepalics with elongated and narrow face and long legs in relation to the trunk.

Two extreme examples of Gracil-Mediterranid and Nordid:

first: Lothar Kilian's theory would indicate roughly a north south division in europe, both genetics (except a few) and the naked eye discredit that, and if i remember correctly lundman favors a W/E line too

second: if Bañuelos is right, than its up to progressive collectivists and nordicists who both adore the nordid as peak type in some sort of hierarchy to definite and emphasize how cognitive abilities work with and are related to pigmentation and the relative absence of melanin, as long the fail to do that, there is no need for discussion

people can dream all the want about nordids or "progressive" people living in the upper layers of society simply because of their being, but as long as you can’t explain why and definite its useless and laughable

[Agrippa]

Its the combination of positive physical traits (tall and harmonious leptomorphs being most wanted and seen as socially dominant, compare various studies on that) together with them being above world average intelligent and schizothymic if its about personality traits. If you want proves for that I can post various links to Skadi and recent studies...

About "racial trees":
An example would be this outdated one from Coon:

A rather confusing 1st trial of myself can be seen here for Europids:

Compare with:
http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=43330
http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=60131

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Its the combination of positive physical traits (tall and harmonious leptomorphs being most wanted and seen as socially dominant, compare various studies on that) together with them being above world average intelligent and schizothymic if its about personality traits. If you want proves for that I can post various links to Skadi and recent studies...

About "racial trees":
An example would be this outdated one from Coon:

A rather confusing 1st trial of myself can be seen here for Europids:

Compare with:
http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=43330
http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=60131

what you're telling has nothing to see with respect to the content, i asked on a clear manner for empirical associations of cognitive abilities as a whole in regards of morphological traits, so you can stop with theoretical guessings about how they would be above world intelligent since you're not able to deliver data for it, it would be noble of you to admit that. and if you believe that social dominance has anything to do with being a slender individual i suggest you take some classes in sociology

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

what you're telling has nothing to see with respect to the content, i asked on a clear manner for empirical associations of cognitive abilities as a whole in regards of morphological traits, so you can stop with theoretical guessings about how they would be above world intelligent since you're not able to deliver data for it, it would be noble of you to admit that.

What I posted above was about the original topic of this thread of course and not about your remarks concerning "Nordicism", though I wonder why you came up with that in almost all threads dealing with racial types.

I will begin with this:
Women's preference for male physique and social dominance:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread....7614#post87614

Zyklothymic traits and obesity:
Mental disorders strongly linked with obesity

Kretschmer and Sheldon typologies:
The typologies of Kretschmer and Sheldon

Correlation between introversion and tall, ectomorphic, depigmented individuals:
The Case of European Alcohol Consumption

On zyklothymic and schizothymic personality traits:
Cyclothymia and Schizothymia as a Dimension of Personality: Historical Review

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

first: Lothar Kilian's theory would indicate roughly a north south division in europe, both genetics (except a few) and the naked eye discredit that, and if i remember correctly lundman favors a W/E line too

second: if Bañuelos is right, than its up to progressive collectivists and nordicists who both adore the nordid as peak type in some sort of hierarchy to definite and emphasize how cognitive abilities work with and are related to pigmentation and the relative absence of melanin, as long the fail to do that, there is no need for discussion

people can dream all the want about nordids or "progressive" people living in the upper layers of society simply because of their being, but as long as you can’t explain why and definite its useless and laughable

I suppose that these words are directed to my so I will answer what should correspond. If Killian says that during the Upper Paleolithic the totality of the population of Europa was formed by two basic types one of narrow forms (Brunnoide) and other one of broad forms (Cromagnoid) does not come to establish a great difference between the Northern Europe and the South since in the Northern Europe it is possible to find both forms and in South Europe aswell. All types that have been originated during the UP and that agrees with the current information about genetics that establishes that approximately 80 % of the European population has an origin UP and not from the Neolithic as was believed still in recent times. In the North the types are depigmented and in the south they have preserved a darker pigmentation better adapted to the most sunny environment.


Regarding Lundman I would like to ask you to which characters according to you this anthropologist has established differences west/east in Europe. With regard to the cephalic index, the pigmentation, height-length index, blood groups??? Can you clarify this point?


Frankly speaking I do not know why if Bañuelos (as many other anthropologists) believed that morphologically the Mediterranid race is similar to the Nordid why you must say the following phrase:


"if Bañuelos is right, than its up to progressive collectivists and nordicists who both adore the nordid as peak type in some sort of hierarchy to definite and emphasize how cognitive abilities work with and are related to pigmentation and the relative absence of melanin, as long the fail to do that, there is no need for discussion

people can dream all the want about nordids or "progressive" people living in the upper layers of society simply because of their being, but as long as you can’t explain why and definite its useless and laughable".