"North-Atlantids" Do Not Exist

[OneEnglishNorman]

This is a summation of mine and Amorsite's thoughts on the "North-Atlantid" type.

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Though Mediterranean-Nordic mixes may exist, there is no evidence that there are any blends stabilised in order to warrant them a new type.

It makes no sense that someone is classified as North-Atlantid for having dark hair and light eyes. Mediterraneans and Nordics are related anyway, and tendencies in an "Irano-Nordic" direction may not necessarily be the result of admixture.

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Let's examine the examples of "North-Atlantids" touted on various sites.

Society for Nordish Physical Anthropology (SNPA):


Pierce Brosnan has heavy Irish Bruenn features. Any other strain cannot be predominant.


Jennifer Connelly's morphology is partially UP (Baltic?). Half of her ancestry is Eastern European & Jewish.


Gary Cooper is possibly Bruenn & Atlanto-Med.


Matthew Goode is like Hugh Grant, an AM-KN-Bruenn mix.

Finally, SNPA's glossary definition of North-Atlantid is laughable because none of the examples in the gallery are predominantly KN.

Quote: "Predominantly Nordid (Keltic Nordid) blend with an Atlanto-Mediterranid strain. North-Atlantids are typically dark-haired and light-eyed, and constitute an important element in the British Isles, and particularly in Wales."

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Agrippa's Racial Typology:

At Thiazi, Agrippa introduces his racial typology system. For the time being we are concerned with his North-Atlantid examples.

Pierce Brosnan has already been covered, he is found to be overwhelmingly Bruenn (UP) of morphology.


Hugh Grant is a mixture of Bruenn, Atlanto-Med and Keltic Nordic. Note the heavy features above, somewhat like Brosnan. But also Grant's vault in profile is cylindrical and he possesses a pinched prominence of the nose, both diagnostics stated for the Keltic Nordic type.



Kyle MacLachlan looks basically UP, similar to Danish actor Lars Kaalund. MacLachlan was included as a "North-Atlantid" due to his dark hair??


Sean Young is essentially Atlanto-Med + UP, resulting in a bigger face.

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Conclusion:

"North-Atlantid" was not needed to classify any of these people.

[/color]People usually classified as North-Atlantid are actually Atlanto-Mediterranean + Upper Paleolithic intermediates of Northern Europe. Anyone is welcome to post 6 examples of British "North-Atlantids". Every example of such exhibited thus far is seriously flawed.

Atlanto-Mediterranean suffices for the Mediterraneans of the British Isles. "North-Atlantid" is not a useful term.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

This is a summation of mine and Amorsite's thoughts on the "North-Atlantid" type.

Here comes PeterThaGreat's favourite anthro duet!

Though Mediterranean-Nordic mixes may exist, there is no evidence that there are any blends stabilised in order to warrant them a new type.

I've always perceived the so-called North-Atlantid as just a Nordo-Mediterranean mix, not particularly stabilised.

But in actual fact, the mixes seemed to vary somehow from the basic Nordo-Mediterraneans in a way that I didn't quite manage to understand. Thus I gratuitously assumed stabilization and didn't give it any further thought. It's probably due to the fact that mixture addition to the main Atlantid element are types such as Bruenn or other Cromagnids, not necessarily "Nordic". Like you suggest.

It makes no sense that someone is classified as North-Atlantid for having dark hair and light eyes.

Just like it makes no sense to presume admixture in any northern direction, in e.g. West Mediterranids with light eyes (mostly and especially green eyes).

Mediterraneans and Nordics are related anyway, and tendencies in an "Irano-Nordic" direction may not necessarily be the result of admixture.

I don't think/see how Mediterranids and Nordids are related. Surely the possible common Aurignacoid origin gives a hint. But on the other hand genetic information does not suggest any relation whatsoever, unlike the strong relation suggested between West Mediterranids and Atlantids.

There is clearly a missing link here.

Finally, SNPA's glossary definition of North-Atlantid is laughable because none of the examples in the gallery are predominantly KN.

Speaking of which, have you guys considered revisioning the so-called Keltic[-Nordic?] type? The "Nordic" bit looks a bit odd to me there.

Predominantly Nordid (Keltic Nordid) blend with an Atlanto-Mediterranid strain. North-Atlantids are typically dark-haired and light-eyed, and constitute an important element in the British Isles, and particularly in Wales. SNPA account here.

When adding links to URLs, please do not use The Thing's redirector. It creates a loop. If the time for editing your post is over, PM the URLs to me and I'll do it for you.

"North-Atlantid" was not needed to classify any of these people.

People usually classified as North-Atlantid are actually Atlanto-Mediterranean + Upper Paleolithic intermediates of Northern Europe. Anyone is welcome to post 6 examples of British "North-Atlantids". Every example of such exhibited thus far is seriously flawed.

Atlanto-Mediterranean suffices for the Mediterraneans of the British Isles. "North-Atlantid" is not a useful term.

Actually, wouldn't that be more like "Atlanto-Mediterranean suffices for the Atlanto-Mediterraneans of the British Isles", whereas "West Mediterranean for the small Mediterraneans of the Isles?

In any case, I often get the feeling that within [the Aurignacoid branch of] the broader Western Race (A-M, W. Mediterranid and Atlantid) Atlanto-Mediterraneans can go into two directions: one lighter (Atlantid direction) and another darker (Mediterranid direction).

[OneEnglishNorman]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Actually, wouldn't that be more like "Atlanto-Mediterranean suffices for the Atlanto-Mediterraneans of the British Isles", whereas "West Mediterranean for the small Mediterraneans of the Isles?

That's true, but as a generalisation it's OK since Small Meds in the Isles are very rare compared to Atlanto-Meds.

Atlanto-Mediterranean suffices for the Atlanto-Mediterraneans of the British Isles - yes to clarify, that is the position.

[Amorsite]

I've always perceived the so-called North-Atlantid as just a Nordo-Mediterranean mix, not particularly stabilised.
But in actual fact, the mixes seemed to vary somehow from the basic Nordo-Mediterraneans in a way that I didn't quite manage to understand. Thus I gratuitously assumed stabilization and didn't give it any further thought. It's probably due to the fact that mixture addition to the main Atlantid element are types such as Bruenn or other Cromagnids, not necessarily "Nordic". Like you suggest.
Just like it makes no sense to presume admixture in any northern direction, in e.g. West Mediterranids with light eyes (mostly and especially green eyes).

Our point basically is: if it is not a stabilized blend which is considerably spread, then why use such blanquet terms?

I don't think/see how Mediterranids and Nordids are related. Surely the possible common Aurignacoid origin gives a hint. But on the other hand genetic information does not suggest any relation whatsoever, unlike the strong relation suggested between West Mediterranids and Atlantids.

The genes coding for morphology are not known therefore genetics insnt in a particularly strong position to disprove the affinity between Nordics and Mediterraneans.
The bottom line is that from a morphological viewpoint Nordics and Mediterraneans are too different from UPs and at the same time too similar themselves for there not to be a connection. Nordics are not as important in northen Europe or elsewhere as previously thought. What if I told you this man was Italian?



How would you classify him?

Speaking of which, have you guys considered revisioning the so-called Keltic[-Nordic?] type? The "Nordic" bit looks a bit odd to me there.

What would it need according to you for it to be considered Nordic? What often happens is that dinarics in the British Isles are often classified as KN. KNs are also altered in varying degrees by dinarics. Peter Cushing is a good example of KN

In any case, I often get the feeling that within [the Aurignacoid branch of] the broader Western Race (A-M, W. Mediterranid and Atlantid) Atlanto-Mediterraneans can go into two directions: one lighter (Atlantid direction) and another darker (Mediterranid direction).

We don't agree with creating new cathegories according to pigmentation. So far any morphological explanation of how "atlantid" is different from Atlanto Med is lacking. Famke Janssen, for example, is AM-Phalian.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

Our point basically is: if it is not a stabilized blend which is considerably spread, then why use such blanquet terms?

My suspicions are that because of some perceived need to create links that extend the limits of the Nordic types proper, well beyond their urheimat.

The genes coding for morphology are not known therefore genetics insnt in a particularly strong position to disprove the affinity between Nordics and Mediterraneans.

Neither does anthropometrics provide any particularly strong evidence for it.

The bottom line is that from a morphological viewpoint Nordics and Mediterraneans are too different from UPs and at the same time too similar themselves for there not to be a connection. Nordics are not as important in northen Europe or elsewhere as previously thought. What if I told you this man was Italian?



How would you classify him?

Alright. There is something that morphologically makes him stand with one foot on each side of the Mediterranoid and Nordoid spectra. And it is clear that you may find more than one example. But they are not the rule, are they?

More often it is what Mediterranids and Nordids differ from Cromagnoids what creates the perception of them being close to each other, than them being actually close to each other.

What would it need according to you for it to be considered Nordic?

That they looked Nordic? And even then, since the Nordid morphology is so similar to the Mediterranid, couldn't they be "Keltic-Mediterranid" just as well?

What often happens is that dinarics in the British Isles are often classified as KN. KNs are also altered in varying degrees by dinarics. Peter Cushing is a good example of KN

How about this fellow here?

We don't agree with creating new cathegories according to pigmentation. So far any morphological explanation of how "atlantid" is different from Atlanto Med is lacking. Famke Janssen, for example, is AM-Phalian.

Call it sub-categories then.

[Amorsite]

My suspicions are that because of some perceived need to create links that extend the limits of the Nordic types proper, well beyond their urheimat.

Some need to "see" Nordics just because the individuals in question are from NW Europe which is traditionally considered "Nordic".

Neither does anthropometrics provide any particularly strong evidence for it.

It all depends on what you call particularly strong. I'm no big fan of measurements but it would be safe to assume that Nordics and Mediterraneans are consistently narrower headed than UPs. Morphologically there is little room for doubt though.

Alright. There is something that morphologically makes him stand with one foot on each side of the Mediterranoid and Nordoid spectra. And it is clear that you may find more than one example. But they are not the rule, are they?
More often it is what Mediterranids and Nordids differ from Cromagnoids what creates the perception of them being close to each other, than them being actually close to each other.

Perhaps these people were northern UPs and not Nordic. Some UPs are classified as Nordic because they are not perceived as typical cases so it is assumed that they "can only be" Nordic while in truth they are usually largely local subvariants of UPs. One example would be Ulrika Jonsson, who is an example of "Hallstatt Nordid" at SNPA and has been for years



She is really more Phalian-Borreby than anything else, just that her type is not common in Germany for example.

A true Nordic would look much like an Atlanto Mediterranean, compare.




I'll agree that similarity isn't always this clear, some Nordics show more Irano-Afghan like tendencies, but it is clear that they are part of the same family. Just like you can find Bruenns and Phalian cases who resemble each other more.

That they looked Nordic?

That's what I was trying to get at, what is looking Nordic for you?

And even then, since the Nordid morphology is so similar to the Mediterranid, couldn't they be "Keltic-Mediterranid" just as well?

They tend to be longer faced and more prominent-nosed like Nordics and Irano-Afghans often are.

How about this fellow here?

Hard to classify from an artistic representation, but I would say he is too dinariform to be KN.

Call it sub-categories then.

If anyone shows how a certain group of AMs are morphologically different from others, I would agree with that subcathegory. Otherwise the European racial situation seems complicated and mixed enough to start being picky about pigment.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Atlanto-Mediterraneans can go into two directions: one lighter (Atlantid direction) and another darker (Mediterranid direction).

Well actually, establishing two directions in pigmentation criterai only I think is useless.
I just call them Atlanto-mediterranids as long as nothing let us differecniated them from the skeletical point of view and, if the choice would be given to me, I'd put the atlantid term to the waste bin

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Truth-Finder

Well actually, establishing two directions in pigmentation criterai only I think is useless.
I just call them Atlanto-mediterranids as long as nothing let us differecniated them from the skeletical point of view

I call it directions without it implying any anthropological criteria.

and, if the choice would be given to me, I'd put the atlantid term to the waste bin

Why? Atlantid is a type of the Gens Occidentis, or Western Race.

North-Atlantid on the other hand, is indeed a waste.

[Weltschmerz]

I have also not seen any evidence or indication that there is a North Atlantid type worth mentioning. Most of the subjects classified as such have substantial Cro-Magnid features, and people who want to cover up the Cro-Magnid race with some unconscious euphemism obviously have issues. And the same is very common with Atlantid. I don't see much use for the term. If Atlantid is a light pigmented Atlanto-Mediterranean, every man with vision can see for himself, so Atlanto-Mediterranean it is.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I call it directions without it implying any anthropological criteria.
Why? Atlantid is a type of the Gens Occidentis, or Western Race.

North-Atlantid on the other hand, is indeed a waste.

I agree with north-Atlantid as a fluffy term.

Regarding your term atlantid as a direction yes I agree, but in that case what would we say of of Western Megalithic builders from Iberian peninsula to SW Sweden who were skeletically "atlanto-mediterraneans " ; would the ygo in a rather AM or an Atlantid direction?

That rises another question, who was there the first? The AM or the Atlantid?

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I don't think/see how Mediterranids and Nordids are related. Surely the possible common Aurignacoid origin gives a hint. But on the other hand genetic information does not suggest any relation whatsoever, unlike the strong relation suggested between West Mediterranids and Atlantids.

May point is somehow that; They are both related as they are of Aurignacic origins the only thing is that the genetic divergence between both is older IMo than it is usually admited; I would say that it traces back to the times of Galley Hill (re-calculated to 10000-12000 BP and not around 47000 BP as though at the times of Coon's TROE). May be Older! (They diverged probably from two different populatons of the Combe-Capelle variety? *)

Nordics does not, is my thinking, Mediterranean derivatives as postulated by Coon because they do not descend from a mediterranid branch (or several blended) that became what we call nordics.

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

It makes no sense that someone is classified as North-Atlantid for having dark hair and light eyes.

Right. Also, A Bmue-eyed Atlanto-mediterranean -which is not very rare- would not be a North-Atlantid Either

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

Mediterraneans and Nordics are related anyway, and tendencies in an "Irano-Nordic" direction may not necessarily be the result of admixture.

While a "Halltadt" and a KN would look more similar to A-M and a corded/East "Nordic" would be more similar to Iarnids and Nord-Indics I wander; would the terms "Nordic" and Even "Mediterranean" Make any long sense?
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*=Pls note; this all are speculations of mine, I do not pretend any scientific statement

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Truth-Finder

I agree with north-Atlantid as a fluffy term.

Regarding your term atlantid as a direction yes I agree, but in that case what would we say of of Western Megalithic builders from Iberian peninsula to SW Sweden who were skeletically "atlanto-mediterraneans " ; would the ygo in a rather AM or an Atlantid direction?

That rises another question, who was there the first? The AM or the Atlantid?

The two directions that I mention are Atlantid vs W. Mediterranid. Not Atlanto-Mediterranean vs other. The A-M can go in the Atlantid or in the W. Mediterranid direction.

Those three types are the core of the Western Race, with the Atlanto-Mediterranean at the peak.