Racial Composition of the British Isles

[OneEnglishNorman]

Racial Composition of the British Isles
(by OneEnglishNorman and Amorsite)

This thread attempts to illustrate the different physical types which play a role in forming the present population of the British Isles. To that end, we have composed a chronologically ordered resume of the Physical Anthropological history of the Isles and galleries of contemporary celebrities who represent the different morphological types in question. Our initiative has the double purpose of serving as a source for taxonomic, anthropological instruction and general knowledge as well as to encourage future research in the field. The number of examples bears an approximate correlation to their frequency within the population of the British Isles and where possible we have endeavoured to use subjects of complete or majority British Isles ancestry.


-6000: Bruenns (Northwestern European Upper Paleolithics)

Among the first migrants to the British Isles were hunters and gatherers who entered in the post-glacial Mesolithic period and spread throughout the British Isles.

These individuals were characterised by possessing a broad Cro-Magnon-like morphology with large jaws, large teeth, large and broad heads, big faces, tall stature, broad and high foreheads, large mouths, a convex upper lip often everted, a heavy bone structure as well as prominent chins. In pigmentation they were frequently and typically rufous (red-haired complexion), the eyes blue and the skin very fair with a tendency to freckling. The Bruenn look presents a remarkable deal of internal variability in both form and pigment ranging from the stereotypical “Irish” to smaller, rounder-faced or gracile-looking individuals. Ireland has been home to a relatively isolated Bruenn population for thousands of years while England and Scotland contain Bruenns not only of native stock, but also from later invasions. To this day this type constitutes the most important element in the population of the Isles. The contemporary individuals below recapitulate features of Bruenn-affiliation.

Bruenns of England;



Bruenns of Ireland;



Bruenns of Scotland;



Bruenns of Wales;



Additionally, individuals of similarly Upper Palaeolithic affiliation occur who may be influenced by strains different to the main Bruenn type of the Isles. A darker type, perhaps earlier, with an upturned shorter nose with bigger nostrils together with a protruding lower lip and a narrower jaw may have influenced the individuals shown below.



Moreover, forms also accompanied by dark pigmentation and comparable to the Upper Paleolithics usually found in Southwestern Europe are present, which may be described as softer featured and rounder than the Bruenn type, with smaller and less rugged faces and smaller of stature. The individuals below show influences of such a type.




-3000: Atlanto-Mediterraneans

During the Neolithic period, and like much of Western Europe, the British Isles were invaded by seafarers of a tall, long-headed and brunet Mediterranean type associated in the Isles and elsewhere with the Megalithic culture. These seaborne Megalith-builders were the Atlanto-Mediterraneans. As can be seen in the map below, they settled in the western part of the Isles from the Atlantic Ocean.

The physical type represented by this group contrasted clearly with the Bruenn: they were narrower-faced and finer and softer-featured, their foreheads sloping, their jaws narrower, their nasal apparatus prominent and their bone structure lighter. Unlike Bruenns, the nose and upper part of the face were large if compared to the lower part. The eyes were comparatively bigger and closer together. In pigmentation they were mostly brown-haired and brown-eyed with a blue-eyed minority. In modern times the Atlanto-Mediterranean phenotype - tall, dark, fine-featured - was frequently seen in earlier Hollywood movies.

In the British Isles today this type is concentrated in the West, especially in Wales and Ireland but also in Scotland. Living examples of this type are presented below:

Atlanto-Mediterraneans;



Atlanto-Mediterraneans have, through millennia of interbreeding with the older population, created intermediate forms. Living examples of such types presented below

Atlanto-Mediterraneans + Bruenns;




-2000: Bell Beakers

With the Bronze Age, seekers and traders of metals settled in South-West Ireland and in favourable areas of England such as Yorkshire, Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, Derbyshire, as well as coastal areas, illustrated in the map.

These individuals were morphologically varied but were usually characterised by a convex and salient prominence of the nose, a flattened occipital bone, a flattish face structure, a narrow distance between the eyes and an overall darker complexion with dark eyes. Bell Beakers do not account for an important part of Britain’s population. Examples are shown below.

Bell Beaker influenced individuals;




-600: Keltic Nordics

At the beginning of the local Iron Age, Celtic culture bearers entered British territory: to England went the Kymric A and B groups, to Ireland the Goidels coming from Spain. These new settlers established themselves in most of the territory of Britain and Ireland.

All Celtic peoples, regardless of their entry route, shared a common central European origin and representative physical type. The Keltic type is far more similar to the Atlanto-Mediterranean than to the Bruenn, but may be distinguished from the former by a pinched prominence of the nose, a more sloping and narrower forehead, a narrower jaw and features, convergent temporal planes and a cylindrical profile of the vault. The Keltic Nordic face gives the impression of being languid, long and narrow, has a somewhat "inverted triangle" shape when viewed frontally and a comparatively short sub-nasal portion. In pigmentation the type is mostly brown-haired, with light eyes and a tendency to vascularity of the skin. The Keltic Nordic type of the British Isles has a tendency to exhibit laterally long nostrils. This can be especially true for Ireland and Scotland, where the long nostrils are accompanied with an enhanced supratip. Keltic Nordics represent to some the stereotypical “English” look. The type is present in most of the British Isles in significant numbers and, after the Bruenn, is the most important strain in today’s British population. Modern examples are shown below:

Keltic Nordics;



Since their entry in Britain and Ireland, the Celts have mixed with the older populations leaving intermediate forms exemplified below:

Keltic Nordics + Bruenns;



Keltic Nordics + Atlanto Mediterraneans;



Keltic Nordics + Bruenns + Atlanto Mediterraneans;




400: Nordic, Phalian, Borreby

The next important movement of peoples in the British Isles and the last of our study was that of the Angles, Saxon and Jutes: the so-called Anglo-Saxon invasions. Unlike the previous migrations, the continental racial types to which these new invaders belonged were varied and similar at the same time to the soon-to-arrive Vikings and therefore the analysis of the Anglo-Saxons will also serve for the Viking conquest.

These Germanic tribes arrived in the East and North of the Isles, as illustrated in the map below.

More important among the Saxons were Nordic and Phalian types. Nordics are morphologically similar to Keltic Nordics except their features are finer and their vaults higher, larger and narrower; the nose is of lesser prominence, and the foreheads of lesser slope. In pigmentation the Nordic type is usually blonde or light brown-haired with green or gray eyes and rosy skin. The individuals below exemplify these features

Nordics;



Nordics are present in solution with Bruenns. Nordic-Bruenn mixed forms occur in the British Isles either because of import or Nordic mixture with the native Upper Paleolithic population.

Nordics + Bruenns;



The Phalian type, in contrast to the Nordic, is similar to the Bruenn. It is differentiated from the latter by fuller cheekbones, broader lips, a “stuffed” shorter and broader face with a triangular jaw and strongly uncompressed and flaring gonial angles giving the face a more lateral aspect, external eye slits curved downwards, a bigger mouth and deep-set eyes. In pigmentation the type is usually blonde or red haired and blue-eyed. To some the Phalian represents the stereotypical “German” look. Individuals of Germanic-derived Phalian types are presented below.

Phalians;



Different Phalian-mixed types exist. Some of these mixes may have occurred on the Continent and traveled with the Germanic invasions, while other mixes were created with prior elements.

Phalians + Nordics;



Phalians + Keltic Nordics;



Phalian + Atlanto-Mediterranean;



The Borreby type, commonest in Denmark, was more important in the Jutish and Angle invasions. It is similar in general terms to the Phalian but with a shorter face; more infantile, rounder features, a shorter nose and lesser skeletal proportions overall. In pigmentation they are similar to Phalians. Borreby examples are presented below

Borreby types;



Individuals belonging to A-S derived types are found with higher frequency in Eastern England and in particular Southeastern England and East Anglia.


Conclusions and other remarks:

Germanic-derived types are most common amongst the Eastern and coastal areas of England and Scotland. In Ireland Germanic types are commonest around Dublin and other urban centres, reflecting the Viking and English influence. Wales together with the interior of the British Isles contains the fewest Germanic types.

Morphologically unaltered Atlanto-Mediterraneans and Nordics are rare; they are more common in solution with Upper Paleolithics. There is no "Anglo Saxon" type existing as a stabilised blend, however many individuals exhibit a combination of Nordic and Upper Palaeolithic elements. Such terms are useful as shorthand, but offer no substantive insight.

The most important population element in the British Isles is Bruenn followed by Keltic Nordic, Atlanto-Mediterranean, Nordic, Borreby and Phalian.

[Visigodo]

Thanks a lot for this interesting thread. Highly appreciated.

It must to check if the theory of the Brünn predominance among the population of the British Isles make sense according to the latest serious work about the physical anthropology of the British people I got from Don Brothwell. "EVIDENCE OF POPULATION CHANGE AND VARIABILITY IN THE BRITISH ISLES". From RASSENGESCHICHTE DER MENSCHHEIT. (1974).

Anyway thanks again.

[Señor Malo]

Great work! I appreciate a lot

Very though ichonographical research job.

I think Inspired on Coon's work on one side but at the same part you updated the info with more recent discoveries (I'm thinking for exemple with the megalithic culture who Coon believed it came from somewhere in the east whence later datations shown to be older than the date Coon believed that mediterraneans and AM invaded Europe, by -3000)

[PeterThaGreat]

Well, you know Amorite and OEN what I think. I think your revival of the 30's is nonsense, especially since you cannot back up that shit in anyway except with "Races of Europe". Like said, genetics have replaced man-made pseudo science based on morphological and metrical traits alone.
This whole work, although nicely put, screams amateurism and the fact that you two have zero knowledge of principles of biology. Anyway, I cannot say I didn't enjoy your thread.

Nice picture gallery. Although my general perception of English (Not necessarily British) is that they definitely lean more to the Nordid side.

I liked the fact that you spoke about Nordid's, Phalians and Borreby -types as "Germanic derivived". That was excellent, after all these all types stem from the same root and have always breeded each other, "Borrrebies" Nordids and Nordids "Borrebies".

Our initiative has the double purpose of serving as a source for taxonomic, anthropological instruction and general knowledge as well as to encourage future research in the field.

Is this a joke, should I cry or laugh?
BTW Amorsite, I've rarely never seen you classify a person as "Nordid" as such. According to you they always have Brueen admixture or whatever. Yet you claim yourself to be bluntly "Nordic", would be nice to see an Argentinian Nordid for once. Could you make a thread of yourself?

[Yago]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

would be nice to see an Argentinian Nordid for once.

Valeria Mazza?



Valeria Mazza :: Website by Skopactel.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

I think your revival of the 30's is nonsense, especially since you cannot back up that shit in anyway except with "Races of Europe". Like said, genetics have replaced man-made pseudo science based on morphological and metrical traits alone

How are you so sure that Genetics has completely replaced Antropometrics? Genetics is for sure almost the only liable source to understand population movemetns and relationships but cannot help us (up to today) to understand how morphological tendencies originated and diferentiated one from another.

As much as you can despice the physical anthropology there are however some facts that cannot be denied; for instance you say that morphological traits is worthless but yet how do you explain that the scarce skeletons that the megalithic tombs of the western fringe of Europe correspond almost in their totality to the so called "Atlanto-Mediterranean"; or the fact that the skeletons of the earliest burials of England associated to hte "keltic" penetration fit morphologically with the so called "keltic" type?

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

BTW Amorsite, I've rarely never seen you classify a person as "Nordid" as such. According to you they always have Brueen admixture or whatever. Yet you claim yourself to be bluntly "Nordic", would be nice to see an Argentinian Nordid for once. Could you make a thread of yourself?

Amorsite is from the US actually. Are you sure you are not mistaking him with me?

[Exeter]

Carleton Coon was an American although he may have been of English descent. Even Coon did not think England is predominantly Brünn. As a whole the people in England look more continental or Scandinavian than the other nations of the British Isles. Some Scots fall in that category too. I'm sure people like Milesian would agree.

Some of the classifications are the same as mine. Lena Heady is one of them. http://forum.stirpes.net/anthropomet...na-headey.html

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Valeria Mazza?



Valeria Mazza :: Website by Skopactel.

Yeah, good brown-eyed "Nordid" indeed.
I'll get back to you later, right now I am in a hurry. The basic assumption of 30's anthro was that metrical similarity equals relationships, total bollocks. Nordids and Alpines in Germany for example are genetically identical, yet thanks to Coon and buffoons like Amorsite and OEN we think they stem from different source. Despite the other has just inhabitet harsher living conditions few generation longer than his Nordid brother.

Since I am busy I quote directly Polako from HBF, he is briefly illustrating how it's dangerous to make assumption based on morphological traits since they can change in such a short period of time thanks to nutrion and environmental stimuli. In parts of Germany and parts of Eastern Europe cephalic index's has dropped even 7 points in just fourty year. It would be ridiculous to start attain dolichocephalic son to a different racial source or timeframe than his Borrreby father (Coon's example) based on such a vague racial indicators as the formation of upper-lip, cephalic-index....etc

"The heads and faces of Germans in the cities has lengthened by a great amount over the past 20 years.

But genetically they are still the same as their parents and Germans in the country.

The genes haven't changed. But the bones have changed due to a different diet and lifestyle."


Anyway, I'll get back later.

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Carleton Coon was an American although he may have been of English descent. Even Coon did not think England is predominantly Brünn. As a whole the people in England look more continental or Scandinavian than the other nations of the British Isles. Some Scots fall in that category too. I'm sure people like Milesian would agree.

Some of the classifications are the same as mine. Lena Heady is one of them. http://forum.stirpes.net/anthropomet...na-headey.html

That's the riduclous stuff OEN and Amorsite insists. England is predominantly Nordid in the same sense as Norway f.e.

[Exeter]

Peculiar and non-Nordid eyeshape. Don't you think?

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Valeria Mazza?

[Ferran]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

Yeah, good brown-eyed "Nordid" indeed.

What about Maxi López? I would say the percentage of Argentinean "Nordoids" (if we exclude the non-Europid population) is higher than in any South European country. I could be wrong though.

[OneEnglishNorman]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Carleton Coon was an American although he may have been of English descent.

We wanted to include him, English Bruenn seemed appropriate. Other Bruenns, the most obvious example being Rooney, reside in one country but descend from another.

Even Coon did not think England is predominantly Brünn. As a whole the people in England look more continental or Scandinavian than the other nations of the British Isles. Some Scots fall in that category too. I'm sure people like Milesian would agree.

To say the two most important influences in England are UP (Bruenn) and Keltic Nordic is fair. The resemblance of the English to Continental Europeans is over-stated somewhat, especially away from the Eastern counties. Phenotypically unmixed celebrities are hard to find, probably we would have liked more Keltic Nordics, but some were disqualified for various reasons.

Some of the classifications are the same as mine. Lena Heady is one of them. http://forum.stirpes.net/anthropomet...na-headey.html

In our system Headey is an English Bruenn. We could not find evidence of Irish background, up to now. We had her in mind as Bruenn before posting the thread, it was to "test the water". You may claim some credit for the inclusion of Pete Townsend and Emma Bunton. But for others, we classified Sharon Stone as Bruenn, not "Anglo Saxon". Robbie Keane as Bruenn and not "PalaeAtlantid" is another example of differing opinion.

In another system Pierce Brosnan is "NordAtlantid", which defies belief

[Exeter]

The middle-upper class English public school educated Sloane Rangers of rural England are indeed quite Nordid, although other racial elements are by no means absent. Some English can look like Norwegian Nordids. When I was in western Norway, I actually got the impression they look more like the English than Swedes.

I've noticed Welsh and Scottish, and sometimes also Irish individuals, try to deny the English their heritage. I remember Rhydderch who scorned the English was obsessed with that. It is probably just an internet phenomenon.

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

That's the riduclous stuff OEN and Amorsite insists. England is predominantly Nordid in the same sense as Norway f.e.

[Exeter]

I suggest you travel to Gloucestershire.

Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman

The resemblance of the English to Continental Europeans is over-stated somewhat, especially away from the Eastern counties.

[Exeter]

Well, dyed hair and what about his nose?



You should post less ambiguous pictures of him. Anyway, it is not the pigmentation. His facial features are not Scando-Nordid. http://www.tantofutbol.com/wp-conten.../08/maxii6.jpg

Originally Posted by Ferran

What about Maxi López?

[Ferran]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Well, dyed hair and what about his nose?

I see where you are going... so I have to tell you that he is from Buenos Aires, and Buenos Aires oficially recognizes a 10% of Jewish population. Who knows what kind of inter-mix is responsible for the nose.

You should post less ambiguous pictures of him.

These are the best I found, you can notice they are not as blurry as the ones you posted too.

Anyway, it is not the pigmentation. His facial features are not Scando-Nordid. http://www.tantofutbol.com/wp-conten.../08/maxii6.jpg

That's why I was talking of "Nordoids". Many people have a hard time finding "pure" Scando-Nordids even in N. Europe, but that's not the debate anyway.

[Exeter]

Originally Posted by Ferran

I see where are you going... so I have to tell you that he is from Buenos Aires, and Buenos Aires oficially recognizes a 10% of Jewish population. Who knows what kind of inter-mix is responsible for the nose.

I'm not one of those people who see a Jew around every corner. Gentiles can have prominent noses too. This guy is not particularly different from Francesco Totti.

I would have classified him as Nordid if I believed he was one.

That's why I was talking about "Nordoids", many people have a hard time finding pure Nordids in N. Europe too.

Who are these people?

In that case that is nonsense spread in internet forums. There is some strange unattainable ideal for Nordid while there is not for others.

Ordinary Nordids in Sweden look like this guy (Trönder variety):

[Ferran]

Originally Posted by Exeter

I'm not one of those people who see a Jew around every corner. Gentiles can have prominent noses too. This guy is not particularly different from Francesco Totti.

Well, I wasn't implying that either. However, it could very well be possible that he had one grandfather with a typical Armenoid nose and it "softened" because of other admixture. In Buenos Aires it would not be such a weird escenario anyway.

Who are these people?

Uhm, too much to remember... it would be better if you search for "Von Sydow" in the search engines of various boards. Recently we had a discussion here about it too.

In that case that is nonsense spread in internet forums. There is some strange unattainable ideal for Nordid while there is not for others.

I agree, but rather than nonsense I would define it as an extreme and unhealthy veneration to Onan.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

Yeah, good brown-eyed "Nordid" indeed.

Yeah, and she also has a nice smile and a sweet character. Oh well..

I'll get back to you later, right now I am in a hurry.

Listen here, I couldn't care less if there are any Nordids in Argentina or not. But the fact is that Argentina (and the whole Southern region of South America) is a country of emigrants from different parts of Europe. So you are likely to get anything there.

But before you get back at me, I'll get at you.

I'll tell you a story. Remember Nietzsche? His sister and her husband set on a project to plant a "pure Aryan" colony in the jungle in Paraguay. To that end, they chose the settlers among peasants from Saxony, as that would give them a purer Nordid element.

The problem was that these settlers were unable to grow a crop to survive on their own there, had it not been for the help (charity, in European parlance) of the Guarani Indians. Further problems developed from an inability to adapt to that environment and other problems derived from inbreeding.

Eventually, the only way for them to survive was to renew their bloodlines by mixing with the better adapted Guarani Indians. Colonia Nueva Germania is today the poorest region in the poorest country of South America.

Allow me to introduce you to Melissa Christoph, one of your [part] Nordids from that region..

The basic assumption of 30's anthro was that metrical similarity equals relationships, total bollocks.

No, not "bollocks". The problem is that Anthropometrics should be taken in an interpretative manner, not as if they were a holy word.

There is an undeniable relationship between similar metrical types living in the same region (e.g., there is no relationship between Nordids and Mediterranids, no matter how metrically similar two of them may be).

But anyhow, that nations are not defined in terms of anthropometrically equal or similar types, but in terms of ethnicity which are often (or rather always) made up by more or less different types.

Nordids and Alpines in Germany for example are genetically identical

Genetic markers show a rather heterogeneous pattern for Germany. This would support the historical migrations and invasions of Germanic tribes, especially past the Rhein and the Danube. Add to that fact that it is not proven that the ancient Germanic tribes belonged all to a one same genetic type, in absolute terms.

Germany as a nation is the result of an ethnic genesis of different primigenial types, come together through historical events. Other speculations are exotic and could only provoke a complex which I don't think that it would help the Germans in any way.

yet thanks to Coon and buffoons like Amorsite and OEN we think they stem from different source. Despite the other has just inhabitet harsher living conditions few generation longer than his Nordid brother.

Since I am busy I quote directly Polako from HBF

If you think that Coon and Amorsite are bufoons, then you must be planning to start up a fun circus if you bring in someone like Polako.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

Nordids and Alpines in Germany for example are genetically identical

Correct and have you ever fancied that Alpines and mediterraneans in Italy are genetically identical, too?
And that same happens with Alpines, Mediterraneans and Nordids of France or with Atlanto-Mediterraneans, "Bruenns" and Keltic-Nordids of Wales and so on?