European Race or European Races

[Der]

· Do you believe in the existence of a European race as such (Europid race) with its correspondent sub-races: Nordic Sub-race, Mediterranid Sub-race, Alpinid Sub-race, Baltid Sub-race, Dinarid Sub-race...

· Or do you simply believe in the existence of European races: Nordic Race, Mediterranid Race, Alpinid Race, Baltid Race, Dinarid Race...

No conclusive evidence exists (I think) to prove that either of these two theories are 100% true. So I would like to know what the forum members think about this.

[Menydh]

I believe in the existance of different European races.

[Breogan]

Is a R1b nordic the same race than a I1a nordic or than a R1b alpinid, for taking just an example?

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I believe in the existance of different European races.

Oh, Mynydd, don't you believe in the existence of the white race?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Breogan

Is a R1b nordic the same race than a I1a nordic or than a R1b alpinid, for taking just an example?

You can find R1b in Norway, Portugal, and Ireland, for example, and yet these populations are quite different in appearance.
I think that populations(haplogroups) mixed too much during the history, so today you can observe the variety of possible anthro-haplogroup combinations in contemporary populations, thus the certain anthropological types cannot be directly linked with certain haplogroups.

[Exeter]

The Y chromosome tell you about one male ancestor.

Originally Posted by Monolith

You can find R1b in Norway, Portugal, and Ireland, for example, and yet these populations are quite different in appearance.
I think that populations(haplogroups) mixed too much during the history, so today you can observe the variety of possible anthro-haplogroup combinations in contemporary populations, thus the certain anthropological types cannot be directly linked with certain haplogroups.

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Exeter

The Y chromosome tell you about one male ancestor.

Not just one male, but the common ancestor male. That's what the race is about.

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Monolith

You can find R1b in Norway, Portugal, and Ireland, for example, and yet these populations are quite different in appearance.
I think that populations(haplogroups) mixed too much during the history, so today you can observe the variety of possible anthro-haplogroup combinations in contemporary populations, thus the certain anthropological types cannot be directly linked with certain haplogroups.

Very right, on the other hand only the pure and pred. pure subrace/race types would be races; what about the two, three... blends of types? Which race are they?

[Cirrus]

I don't belive in race. We're all the same.

No, seriously, I believe neither :

My opinon is that there is a Caucasian/Europoid race (but not European) with different phenotypes in it (Alpinid, Nordid, Mediterranid, Orientalid...) but which can't be defined as "races" per se.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Breogan

Very right, on the other hand only the pure and pred. pure subrace/race types would be races; what about the two, three... blends of types? Which race are they?

I believe that people who are of pure type are a rarity, so you can see many people having "CM+Baltid" ,"Atlantid+Mediterranoid" or "Nordid+..." etc., designations in their profiles. So I think you're of that type that predominates in your phenotype.
Today we call ourselves Europeans(the European race, as some may say), because we are descendants of various peoples, carriers of various different anthropological types and haplogroups(both Y-chromosomal and mtDNA), which were native to Europe for a long time.
So I consider every Europoid anthro type as a branch of common European basis.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

My opinon is that there is a Caucasian/Europoid race (but not European) with different phenotypes in it (Alpinid, Nordid, Mediterranid, Orientalid...) but which can't be defined as "races" per se.

I agree with this, I also believe that in racial terms the existance of a Europid group or supergroup can't be denied. This Europid group has developed in different forms depending on on weather and/or geographical conditions, aswell as selective pressure, giving birth to different phenotypes or sub-races, all inside the Europid race though.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I don't belive in race. We're all the same.

Yes, the Human race! Believing in the existence of races is a sin.

[Menydh]

The problem is where we start to tell the limits that define a race. DNA and genetics? If so, there are different haplogroups which all belong to Europe yet they make us different.

Anthropology? Before starting to define sub-races, it seems that all derive more or less from at least two types from the Upper Paleolithic: the Aurignacoids and the Cromagnoids. So there we have at least two races.

Another clue, in my opinion, would be to start at Sergi's idea of an Eurafrican and Eurasian races. Not that I'm saying that he was completely right, but my feelings is that such a subdivision is not that far from the reality.

Now, are we all pretty mixed even at the level genetics and of the assumed races and their sub-divisions? Sure we are, but often one type is predominant over the others and it is there where differences start.

There is no problem with assuming this. The problem starts when someone pretends to take one type as prototypical of all Europid types.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Another clue, in my opinion, would be to start at Sergi's idea of an Eurafrican and Eurasian races. Not that I'm saying that he was completely right, but my feelings is that such a subdivision is not that far from the reality.

He also thought a Ethiopian was as Mediterranid as you... or an Indian.

[Waarnemer]

There is no point in believing in the second option if you don't believe in the first one. The conditions don't change, the second option would be a pure subjective and personal one on the grounds of the simple rejection of the first.

[Menydh]