Who's most close to original Kurgan type?

[Ariets]

Who's most close to original Kurgan type?

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Ariets

Who's most close to original Kurgan type?

What do you mean?

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Plethon

What do you mean?

Phenotypically, ongoing genetics we know as far as I know

[Vityaz]

East-Nordid? or East-Nordid/Pontid?

[Waarnemer]

proto europids aka cromagnids as been said by schwidetzky

A Synopsis Of The Physical Anthropology Of The Corded Ware Complex

[Savorgnan]

There was not an "original Kurgan type".This zone was pretty mixed in the late bronze-age.The majority was bachycephalic though (look at pictures of Ukrainian stars Andriy Shevchenko and Anna Netrebko and you'll have a pretty good idea of what the majority of Kurgan zone inhabitants could have been looking like).There is absolutely no proof that it was an Indo-European speaking zone.It could have been Turkic.By the way,speaking of Indo-European,it's not even sure that this family even exist.Could have been a creation of german linguists of the XIXth century,but that is another debate,I'll try to post a thread on this subject soon.

[Señor Malo]

Cro-Magnonids as Waarnamer said.

BTW there is great confusion I think about the OLDEST KURGAN CULTURES and the Battle Axe-Corded complex the second ones are quite more recent.

The oldest KURGAN CULTURES (Let's call them "the original Kurgans" if you prefear) are the Srednii-Stog and the Dniepr-Donetz ones from Ukraine and Southern Russia if I remember well and the bearers has been identified as Proto-Europids (CM) with a few pontic mediterraneans

[Ariets]

Peoples of the Baltic circle of cultures (Ertebo/lle) were hunters and fishermen, and produced only one or two pottery forms. This was a rather tall, broad-faced population of the North Europoid type, who buried their dead in the extended position on the back
(...)
The Yamna culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppe is recorded for an enormous territory between the North-Western Pontic area and Trans-Uralia. Its sites are known here in the basin of the Emba and Tobol rivers, the Karaganda region and further eastward (Merpert 1974). The Yamna population generally belongs to the European race. It was tall (175.5cm), dolichocephalic, with broad faces of medium height. Among them there were, however, more robust elements with high and wide faces of the proto-Europoid type, and also more gracile individuals with narrow and high faces, probably reflecting contacts with the East Mediterranean type (Kurts 1984: 90).
(...)

Source: Journal of Indo-European Studies Vol. 33: 3-4, p. 339

Lundman was also talkin' about "blond element" etc.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Ariets

Source: Journal of Indo-European Studies Vol. 33: 3-4, p. 339

Lundman was also talkin' about "blond element" etc.

yes and lundman was a selfdiscrediting nordicist

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

yes and lundman was a selfdiscrediting nordicist

He was funny, but to me personally anyway better that mr Coon. I has mention also about that Brunns, Skando- and East-Nordids ware only true blablah Indo-Europeans.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Ariets

Source: Journal of Indo-European Studies Vol. 33: 3-4, p. 339

Lundman was also talkin' about "blond element" etc.

Blond element yes, but Cro-Magnonid

These same cro-magnonids and pontic meds has stretched as far as Eastern Siberia as proofs the skeletical evidences from affanasievo site

Coon was a great anthropologist yet he was deceiving in some points; in his Iron age section he talks about "asian varieties of nordics " who might have taken the IE speechs into Asia; yet in one instance he describes those nordics as "low skulled " and in other instance as "broad faced"; same for his ancient roman section; On one side he sais that nordics of hallstadt and keltic type entered the Italic penninsula at the end of the bronze age and formed the basic element of the roman patricians but at the same time says that the famous rman patricians whose bust survived up to our days showed evidence that they were laterally built ... I think he inconciously could not break with the ancient dogma that true IE had to be nordic....

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

Blond element yes, but Cro-Magnonid

These same cro-magnonids and pontic meds has stretched as far as Eastern Siberia as proofs the skeletical evidences from affanasievo site

Coon was a great anthropologist yet he was deceiving in some points; in his Iron age section he talks about "asian varieties of nordics " who might have taken the IE speechs into Asia; yet in one instance he describes those nordics as "low skulled " and in other instance as "broad faced"; same for his ancient roman section; On one side he sais that nordics of hallstadt and keltic type entered the Italic penninsula at the end of the bronze age and formed the basic element of the roman patricians but at the same time says that the famous rman patricians whose bust survived up to our days showed evidence that they were laterally built ... I think he inconciously could not break with the ancient dogma that true IE had to be nordic....

In the anciet days probably aquiring a new technique simply meant that integrating a minority of immigrants who were familiar with the technology and it spread most probably by marriages in the days of peace. I tink this is an old tradition that the noblemen has the most mixed blood. Coons nordic is just a generalization for it seems coon was quite antiseperationst. His book was written in 1939 those days promoting freedom brotherhood and equality was "being politically incorrect", those days intoxicated by the scienific progressivism and because of the divided religious authority, while instead of surrendering to God, having surrendered to Ceasar within natural borders of people who were simply identified by the ability of understanding each other's language, people felt high and confident about themselves which fed their ego and greed. Coon is clearly against any neoautochtonous dream. coon is the evangelist of globalism.
Anyway, the sarmatians are low vaulted iron age nordics who are mixed with the halstatt mixed with upper paleolithic components, this is visible though in the cranias of the original halstatt site with the presence of broad faced individuals. grailized cromagnis ,unlike what gimbutas had proposed, would make a borreby,
sarmatians are continental european and are very unlikely to contain any r1a if they had not been heavily turkicized or had not absorbed some small kurganid minority that had introduced them horse technology.

Originally Posted by unregistered

In the anciet days probably aquiring a new technique simply meant that integrating a minority of immigrants who were familiar with the technology and it spread most probably by marriages in the days of peace. I tink this is an old tradition that the noblemen has the most mixed blood. Coons nordic is just a generalization for it seems coon was quite antiseperationst. His book was written in 1939 those days promoting freedom brotherhood and equality was "being politically incorrect", those days intoxicated by the scienific progressivism and because of the divided religious authority, while instead of surrendering to God, having surrendered to Ceasar within natural borders of people who were simply identified by the ability of understanding each other's language, people felt high and confident about themselves which fed their ego and greed. Coon is clearly against any neoautochtonous dream. coon is the evangelist of globalism.
Anyway, the sarmatians are low vaulted iron age nordics who are mixed with the halstatt mixed with upper paleolithic components, this is visible though in the cranias of the original halstatt site with the presence of broad faced individuals. grailized cromagnis ,unlike what gimbutas had proposed, would make a borreby,
sarmatians are continental european and are very unlikely to contain any r1a if they had not been heavily turkicized or had not absorbed some small kurganid minority that had introduced them horse technology.

The skulls of the Anglo-Saxons who invaded England in the fourth and fifth centuries of the present era79 (see Appendix I, col. 43) are almost identical with this Hannover group. It is to this same specific category that the Spanish Visigothic skulls to which we have already referred belong. To it must be added two series of old Frisians from northern Holland,80 which are identical in every respect. The skulls of these old Saxons, old Hanoverians, and old Frisians differ in a number of ways from those of other Nordics which we have studied. They arc larger than the Aunjetitz group and the Danes, and in fact any other series of Indo-European speakers that we have met, except the Norwegians. They lack the low vault and sloping forehead common to the earlier Nordics of Denmark, the Gauls, and the Scyths. The vault is moderately high; while the cranial index is on the border of dolicho- and mesocephaly. Compared with the other Nordics, the forehead is relatively straight, the browridges are greater, the muscular markings more pronounced, the cranial base wider, the face longer and somewhat wider.



The type represented by these three groups and by the Visigoths seems to be a variant of the Nordic type to which the early Indo-European speakers belonged. Its difference is one of size, and it appears to have attained this distinction through a mixture, in southern Scandinavia and Germany, between the older local population, consisting of a combination of Megalithic, Corded, and Borreby elements, and the purely Nordic Danish Iron Age group. The resultant type approaches in some respects, but does not even approximate in size, the coastal Norwegian population which we have already studied, and it deviates far less from the central European Nordic than does the Norwegian group.
kind regards
T.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by unregistered

sarmatians are continental european and are very unlikely to contain any r1a if they had not been heavily turkicized or had not absorbed some small kurganid minority that had introduced them horse technology.

What's this supposed to mean? That R1a is an haplogroup related to Turkic?

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by unregistered

grailized cromagnis ,unlike what gimbutas had proposed, would make a borreby,

Oh, because borrebies are gracile?

Originally Posted by unregistered

Anyway, the sarmatians are low vaulted iron age nordics who are mixed with the halstatt mixed with upper paleolithic components, this is visible though in the cranias of the original halstatt site with the presence of broad faced individuals.

Anyway the subject of the thread is the physical type of the Kurgan who is the primoridal PIE culture.

The expansion of IE was made by successive waves and not via a big globalized movement. There is a movement which implyed the indo-europeanization of Hellenes, another for the anatolians, another for the Indo-aryans, another for the german-balto-slavs another for the italo-kelts (I'm quoting by memory so not sur of the accuracity of the movements named).

Each movement took several centuries so the original cro-magnid element mingled with the elements of the different aborignal popultations they encountered in their advance.

About the sarmathians it depends how the indo-iranian movements was made; if they departed directly from the original Kurgan place or if they departed fro the indo-europeanized corded ware complex ...

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

Oh, because borrebies are gracile?

obviously they are partially gracile, partially reduced.

Anyway the subject of the thread is the physical type of the Kurgan who is the primoridal PIE culture.

if i had been so sure about it would be a famous man. to be frank i am not sure whether ever kurganids moved afar hungary. i dont see any spesific reason for kurganids to be destined in any way different than other schytians. sarmatians or schytians or huns after a relativt succesfull period almost all dissolved, for example sarmatians were never able to become victorious over parsians. if you can bring me solid evidence for kurganization of europe other than referrals to some obscure articles i would be gratefull.

The expansion of IE was made by successive waves and not via a big globalized movement. There is a movement which implyed the indo-europeanization of Hellenes, another for the anatolians, another for the Indo-aryans, another for the german-balto-slavs another for the italo-kelts (I'm quoting by memory so not sur of the accuracity of the movements named).

Each movement took several centuries so the original cro-magnid element mingled with the elements of the different aboriginal popultations they encountered in their advance.

About the sarmathians it depends how the indo-iranian movements was made; if they departed directly from the original Kurgan place or if they departed fro the indo-europeanized corded ware complex ...

to speak the truth, hittites were mainly alpins. they were a blend of native medieterraneans and alpins ,most probably the local cappadocian subtype was longer headed originally. for example you can yourself classify alexander the great from his many busts. finally, i reserve my comments on indoeuropeanized corded ware complex.
kind regards