Polish Anthropologists and other related data

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Visigodo

I see.

You can consider Sudetian equal to Sudetid.

Regarding Czekanowski's term "pre-Slavic" several anthropologists accordig to Lahovary have criticized such term because this term doesn't correspond with any precise concept and cover several heterogeneous populations, whose racial adherence is very variable and different from region to region. The terminology of Czekanowski has been judged unfortunate and intended to introduce a supplementary element of confusion in the anthropology field.

Anyway I found Czekanowki interesting. I have some works from him. The two most interesting in my opinion "The Theoretical Assumptions of Polish Anthropology and Morphological Facts" and "Zur Anthropologie von Nord-Ost-Europa".

do you have some scans

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Ariets

do you have some scans

Not yet, too much work sorry.

Are you interested in something in particular?

[Ariets]

Everything about Poland, especially on Baltids (Czekanowski even write some other book about them in german language) and Nordids, you know polish Anthropologist's ware diffrent than others, we have even few "schools of anthropology" (Czekanowski from Lviv) with diffrent anthro-education types. Michalski, Młynarski, Czekanowski etc. Many anyway

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Ariets

Everything about Poland, especially on Baltids (Czekanowski even write some other book about them in german language) and Nordids, you know polish Anthropologist's ware diffrent than others, we have even few "schools of anthropology" (Czekanowski from Lviv) with diffrent anthro-education types. Michalski, Młynarski, Czekanowski etc. Many anyway

I see. Well if I must to be frank Polish anthropology is working with different systems compared with Western or even Russian anthropologists but I will try to make a short insertion following Wiercinski in his work "Racial History of Poland". According to him the racial history of Poland is difficult to present in a concise and uniform way due to very specific conceptions and analytical procedures of individual racial typology applied by the adherents of various trends of the Polish Anthropological School (PAS).

On one hand, the amount and value of taxonomical information varies to a greater extent among different Polish authors and, on the other hand, its meaning is hardly comparable to the results of raciological studies carried out abroad.

All the results of the older investigations conducted in the field of racial history of Poland and adjacent regions have been brilliantly synthetised in post-war times by Czekanowki (1948 and 1957). However, his considerations did not exceed the methodological and conceptual frame of the Lwów School being based on comparisons of the racial compositions calculated by use of the so-called "law of frequency of antrhopological types". The individual typology of all the series covering the time-span from the Neolithic period to the recent times, resulted from an analysis of a short list of several classic indices and pigmentation traits.

A most general etnogenetical conclusion of Czekanowski was that the Slavs originated in the area of Vistula and Oder basins being closely related to Illyrians having common cultural basis in the form of the Lausation culture. Racially, the Slavs were characterised by a considerable prevalence of the Nordic element associated with the high shares of the Lapponoid component derived from an archaich mesolithic background as well as form the Combe Pottery populations while the first element descended from preindoeuropean invasions (some other anthropologists talk about admixture of the Nordid Slavs in Poland with "Finno-Europoids", "Osteuropids", "Finno-Uralids" etc. basically because the strong brachycephalisation and the strong % of blood group type B among the Polish population but I think nowadays genetics make such theory outdated).

Czekanowski refused to accept any deeper change of the racial structure of the population inhabitant Polish territory in the course of the last two millenia because he interpreted the brachycephalisation process as a sudden transformation of genetic dominace of cephalic index which occurred in the late mediaeval times. The synthesis of Czekanowski constituted the last, final stage of development of the Lwów School.

A next attemp at a general review of raciological data dealing with Poland and adjacent regions was published by Kócka (1958). He compiled from litetarure very extensive material of populations means of only five cranial indices which served as basis for application of the so-called "reference points method" of A. Wanke conceived as the method of calculation of the racial compositions. Such scant raciological description, mechanically treated by use of all, Kócka undoubtelly overestimates the shares of Mediterranean component which according to him exceeds 60% in different neolithic series, and it does not decrease even in the early medieaeval populations from Central and Northern Europe.

The whole process of the racial changes Kócka explains as a process of "demediterranisation" whic has affected various ethnic groups with different rates. The ancient Slavs have also shown an absolute prevalence of the Mediterranean element over Lapponoid and Paleoeuropoid, the latter being addec by Kócka to the four racial elements of Europe of the Lwów School (i.e. Nordic, Mediterranean, Lapponoid and Armenoid). However, Kócka alse sees the crandle of Slavs in the same area of Vistula and Oder Basins and in connection with the Lausation culture.

In spite of both these large raciological syntheses the younger generation of the Polish anthropologists decided, first of all, to publish the individual data of old and new skeletal materials with longest possible list of metric and descriptive traits in order to collect as much information as possible.
However, the publication of very long lists of individual traits has been rarely appeared in conjuction with a more detailed statistical analysis. Thus, there is a lack of proper statistical measure for a comparative study. Ussualy the elaboration of the new craniological materials was based only on the applications of "reference point method" of Wanke or the typological procedure of so-called Comparative-Morphological School of I. Michalski.

For the moment that's all, probably I will post something more another day.

[Ariets]

In the fact Wojciech Kocka was Lusatian sorb anyway ;-)
And what high % of B group? Its not even quarter Thanks for the post, Im really interesed on the materials!
Imo Poles now look mailny like Nordo-Baltoid blend

Poland:
O+ : 31 %
A+ : 32 %
B+ : 15 %
AB+ : 7 %
O- : 6 %
A- : 6 %
B- : 2 %
AB- : 1 %

[Visigodo]

Originally Posted by Ariets

And what high % of B group? Its not even quarter

Compared with other racial types or Western populations is high. For example and according to Lahovary typical blood group % among several racial types or populations with predominance of such racial types:

Nordics.- AB: 3,7; A: 46,4; B: 9; O: 40,7
Mediterranids.- AB: 3,5; A: 34,1; B: 9,5; O: 52,7 (Baskids even less)
Alpinids.- AB: 6,6; A: 51,5; B: 11,5; O: 30,2
East-Baltids.- AB: 8,6; A: 34,5; B: 25,5; O: 31,4.

Or as Mourant wrote in his work "THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE HUMAN BLOOD GROUPS": "The most striking general feature of eastern Europe as a whole is the presence of a series of concentric tongues of high B and low O frequency based on the northern end of the Caspian Se and sweeping across south Russia and Poland into eastern Germany. Their form suggests that they mark the track of extensive immgrations into central Europe from the East".

Part of Poland has a percentage of bloob group B between 15 to 20%:



But never mind. Blood groups is outdated and nowadays genetical studies confirm tha Poles are fully Europeans genetically (something that I never have had doubts like some anti-Slavic people, remember I am Europeist and European Nationalist) as you can see in the attached files.

Thanks for the post, Im really interesed on the materials!

You are wellcome. I will try to post more material in future.

Imo Poles now look mailny like Nordo-Baltoid blend

Well that is a way to simplify the complexity ot the racial history of Poland and his racial composition in my opinion. The Polish anthropoligical school and his conclusions make the question something more complex.

By the way. Is this kind of web sites your source?

Polako’s guide « Racial Classifications

They say: "The most common Nordic in Poland is probably the East Nordid - a tall, high headed type with a prominent nose. It is often confused with the Noric type on Anthropology forums such as “Human Biodiversity”. But various so called Nordid/Cro-Magnid and Nordid/Baltid blends are even more common in Poland. (…) ."

[Galaico]

Polako’s guide « Racial Classifications

They say: "The most common Nordic in Poland is probably the East Nordid - a tall, high headed type with a prominent nose. It is often confused with the Noric type on Anthropology forums such as “Human Biodiversity”. But various so called Nordid/Cro-Magnid and Nordid/Baltid blends are even more common in Poland. (…) ."

Good ol' Polak/Polako

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Visigodo

They say: "The most common Nordic in Poland is probably the East Nordid - a tall, high headed type with a prominent nose. It is often confused with the Noric type on Anthropology forums such as “Human Biodiversity”. But various so called Nordid/Cro-Magnid and Nordid/Baltid blends are even more common in Poland. (…) ."

Eh Polako is not my source My source is that how look modern young Polish people, I partly agree with his theories, dont speculate about genetics because this is for me black magic .

Ongoing debrachyliocepahlisation proces (some raports ware on HBF - but now is down (?)) polish people have change a lot, compared to older people (who look in fact more "cromagnoid" I'd say) - even froom days when thay ware young. How do you imagine guy like me with CI about ~75 (I write with "~", because Im not sure, my clipper dont work good - and sometimes my head breadth can have less than 150mm's to 147(sic!)) before second war? Maybe its better conditions to live? When you look on Michalski's tables of meansures you will se really diffrent variation for example:
-North-Western (North Pontid) hava CI about 74-77 as "standard"
-Nordids hava CI about 77,5-80 - as "standard"
-Polish (rare!) Mediterranids have very low CI sometimes even less than 73
-Baltoids (CM-Lappid blend to him) have 80-81, but some extreme round headed (I guess East Baltids) even more than 85
And much more things, Cephalic index drops "little bit", we're now taller (177,7 cm's is average to my book of biology from school) , maybe also something else - we change alot, maybe we are going to re-create our original racial type? Damn, I dont know , I'd like to look at skeleton material and some data

To mods: You cann disconnect these few posts about Poles and put it to some new thread about Poland to not make more offtopics