Odd recessing chin - what's the reason???

[jarlSigvald]

Look at them... no prominence whatsoever...









What trait is it??? Med??? Nordid??? These guys look pretty Nordid... if not for their chins of course...

There is yet another interesting thing I only now noticed. Note that in in almost all cases this recessing chin goes along with sticking out ears...



funny, huh?

According to SNPA glossary the receding chin is a trait of:
- paleo-melanesid
- paleo-mongoloid
- sudanid
Here is an opinion by Glenlivet from skadi on recessing chins (Skadi Forum) :

The man look more Nordid, but his chin retreat too much. They might even look predominantly Atlantid. I am not sure Lundborg knew what he was talking about. His opinion is probably not worth more than a laymans. He was not a scientist in the sense of more modern anthropologists like Schwidetzky.

Agrippa in forum.stripes.net:

Thats the one, the progressive tendency in Europe, keeping the physical versatile and efficient form - no strong reduction - but at the same time advanced features for Europids like strong facial relief, prominent nose, orthognathy, positive chin.

Gareth on dodona

1967! From Ilse Schwidetzky's book with the results of her examination of Westphalia. You should already know the Dalofaelid type.
The young people in the pictures are from the north-west of the region, a local Rhine type distinct from Dalofaelid. Schwidetzky thought the Germanic tribes moved forward along the Rhine and thus the high degree of blondism that can be seen here.
Special features of the Rhine type (less frequent among Dalofaelids and the north-eastern Weser type):
- large eye slits
- oblique eye slits
- full lips
- long face
And according to the maps also:
- receding chin
- higher C.I.
- narrow lower jaw
- oblique eyebrows
- receding cheekbones
- wavy mouth line instead of linear
- rounded outline of the chin seen frontally

By Heydrich on skadi forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
This one shows rather Halstatt type... Nothing really Dinaric except for the hooked nose (rather Roman nose) His head length is clearly not Dinaric... His ears are not even rotated that is imho a major feature of Dinarids\Armenoids...

Halstatt? Apart from the hooked nose (probably attenuated in other portraits) there is the receding chin...

Visigodo on forum.stripes.net:

V: Seems to be East-Nordid with Baltid admixture in the younger pictures but the elliptic profile with the receding chin and the sloping forehead and something in the nose shape when older make me think about some kind or armenoid/orientalid influences at some level but I am not sure.

Besides... let me quote Guenther here (Chapter II):

The face is narrow, with a fairly narrow forehead, narrow high-standing nose, and a narrow under jaw with an angularly-set, clear-cut chin.

Figs. 34a , 34b Esthonian Chin too retreating, nose too short

Fig. 39 Corsica H. fair chin too retreating

1.
Guenther was precise - an angularly-set, clear-cut chin is Nordid. Chin which is too retreating is not proper Nordid.... I mean - either he was wrong or these guys are not entirely Nordid.

2.
Glenlivet, Agrippa, Gareth, Heydirch, Nicola_Canadian, Visigodo, F.K Gunether....
I see there are many ideas on receding chin, but none of the people above considered it as a Nordid trait! Why? So what trait is it? If we examine the candidate types than neither the "Rhine type" nor the Dinaric type, nor the Armenoid is Halstatt Nordid as far as I know...? So perhaps the receding chin is a sort of German dinaricisied "Rhine type" peculiarity???

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by jarlSigvald

What trait is it??? Med??? Nordid??? These guys look pretty Nordid... if not for their chins of course...

A receding chin is not a Mediterranid trait as far as I know.

There is yet another interesting thing I only now noticed. Note that in in almost all cases this recessing chin goes along with sticking out ears...

Adaptation to aerodynamics?

Seriously though, I'll try to observe if that's the case with Mediterranoid types here too.

According to SNPA glossary the receding chin is a trait of:
- paleo-melanesid
- paleo-mongoloid
- sudanid

[...]

1.
Guenther was precise - an angularly-set, clear-cut chin is Nordid. Chin which is too retreating is not proper Nordid.... I mean - either he was wrong or these guys are not entirely Nordid.

2.
Glenlivet, Agrippa, Gareth, Heydirch, Nicola_Canadian, Visigodo, F.K Gunether....
I see there are many ideas on receding chin, but none of the people above considered it as a Nordid trait! Why? So what trait is it? If we examine the candidate types than neither the "Rhine type" nor the Dinaric type, nor the Armenoid is Halstatt Nordid as far as I know...? So perhaps the receding chin is a sort of German dinaricisied "Rhine type" peculiarity???

Are we to assume that there exists a one Nordic type in an unaltered (non-mixed) state exists? Or any other type for that matter?

I think that the general consensus is that it does not. Therefore a non Nordid proper (or other type of Nordoid) is possible. If so, which?

If going by the three possibilities given by SNPA and Ockham's Razor, wouldn't we be hinted to Paleo-Mongoloid?

[jarlSigvald]

According to Ilse Schwidetzky a recessing chin is a trait of the Rhine-Nordid type... The thing is it's rather uncommon among other Nordids... I do not know where it came from, but I know that many of those recessing chins do not show any prominence, but are rounded and smooth, like here

[Menydh]

Some oddities on receding chins.

Von Eickstedt clearly implies that a receding chin is a primitive trait:

To give our readers the flavour of von Eickstedt's work and the way he formed his working hypotheses, we quote here in full (in our own translation) a section of his writing on the Onge. He identifies two outsider types as well as a normal uniform type among the Onge population

...we have first clearly met the higher type in a chief of the Western Bay people. Totally un-Negritoid are the brutal chin with the strong lower lip, the hooked yet fairly narrow nose as well as the outline of the forehead and the general facial expression. Still more clearly does this type appear in the oldest man at Weule [Dugong ] Creek, the only Onge to turn up with his bow (which was later "accidentally" broken by one of our Rutland Onges during trial shooting). The old man had a long, finely chiselled face that was crowned by a splendid forehead, a daring aquiline nose, tight, firm lips and an energetic chin. It appears almost a typological contradiction that such a fine, friendly senatorial head had jet-black skin and belonged to a pygmy body. Other individuals also occasionally showed thick lower lips or finely curved noses, sometimes thickened at the tip, characteristic of the Mopla, Arab half-breeds of the Malabar coast (where this report has been written). Apart from the more recent Malay pirates, for the past one and a half thousand years it has been above all Arab merchants, often slavers, who called at the Andamans. Trade was almost exclusively in Arab hands and the lack of water forced the small trading boats to travel in stages. In view of this fact and the obvious morphological data there can hardly be any doubt that the type discussed here originates in Arab somatic influence, i.e. comes in its essence from an oriental race. It is possible that such influence has entered the population before strongly xenophobic attitudes had spread - even though according to sources such attitudes have been current for more than a millennium - but it can also be that not every shipwrecked castaway was murdered after all. Even among the Jarawa there has recently been a case when an escaped convict has been accepted within the group (albeit the last surviving and badly injured survivor of a group). In any case, even a few intrusions could hold up in a population that was isolated towards the outside world for very long periods and that consisted of at most 3-400 persons.

The second outsider type among the Onge is a morphological contrast to the first: the face is low and round, the jaw often protruding as in a snout, the upper part of the face flat with a small, low and slightly turned-up, stubby nose. This type, which in the field we called "chimpanzoid" for short, is underlined further in its primitive features by a highly receding chin and protruding eyes. It is obvious that we have here a primitive component within the Negritos, a surviving trait from the morphological development of the race, so to speak. Whether the type represents the survival of an original stage in the development of the present-day Onge or whether it represents another Negrito group that was pushed into the Andamans at the same time as the original Onge must remain undecided. The latter explanation cannot be rejected out of hand in view of the linguistic mosaic of the Great Andamans.

Neither the oriental nor the primitive type is numerous among the Onge ... The majority of the Onge is characterized by a relatively unified type ... On historical and morphological grounds it seems justified to regard the Onge as the Negrito group that has least been modified through outside contact and gives the best representation of the old type of the Negrito race .... The face [of a typical Onge man] is of middle length, the nose middling broad and with a blunt, slightly upturned tip. The impression of a square face is somewhat reduced by a pointed chin. Of primitive characteristics we find especially a concave upper lip, a receding chin and a widened nose, all only to a relatively light degree. The forehead is steep, eyes, ears and mouth are large, the lips are not thick, sometimes even thin. Hair form and colour, however, are Negroid.

Appendix A: Pioneers of the British Period

This belief would be theoretically reinforced by the description of the primitive Neanderthals:

Attention is drawn to the fact that in a host of details, such as the formation of the ear and the joints of the lower jaw, the skull, unlike that of the Neanderthal man, is of the human as opposed to the anthropoid type. The neck, on the other hand, must have been squat and apelike, and the formation of the chin retreating, like that of a dog.

According to Dr. Woodward, there are two points which definitely and positively mark the skull as human. These are found first in the nature of the hinge for the lower jaw, which agrees absolutely with that in modern man, and differs emphatically from that of apes, and second, in the presence of the two conspicuous sub-conical bosses of bone at the base of the skull, known as the mastoid processes. These are peculiar to the human race, but the bosses of bone in the Sussex man are smaller than in the higher race.

But it is not, Dr. Woodward declares, till we come to an examination of the lower jaw that the full significance of the discovery becomes apparent, for while the brain case is emphatically human the jaw is as emphatically apelike. Found by itself it might and would be regarded as that of an ape with many human features in its general conformation.

This remarkable fragment agrees with the celebrated jaw found about five years ago on Jauer Heidelberg and known as the Heidelberg jaw, but it presents an apelike feature which the less ancient Heidelberg jaw does not. The most striking point of both is the extraordinary receding chin, the jaw sloping backward sharply from the base of the teeth, which had a decided forward thrust.

In the living races of mankind the chin is always more or less conspicuous, the lower border of the jaw standing well in advance of the teeth, which are mounted vertically along its rim.

Other apelike features of the jaw are the absence of the muscular ridge along its inner surface, known as the mylohyoid ridge, affording attachments for the muscles of swallowing and speech. This ridge is always present in the human jaw.

Darwin Theory Is Proved True

Modern Human child and Neanderthal child (Gibraltar 1)

.. or surely by comparative descriptions of apes.

Whether this should be taken or not at a face value is another matter. I don't think that it should. At least not in absolute terms.

Another interesting description, which might offer a different perspective even if it does not tell anything about the subjects of the observation, is that of Pharaoh Tutankhamun:

French forensic anthropologist Jean-Noël Vignal determined the basic measurements and features of Tutankhamun's face. Vignal deduced that Tutankhamun had a narrow nose, buck teeth, a receding chin, and Caucasian features. Such features are typical of European, North African, Middle Eastern, and Indian peoples.

Photo in the News: King Tut\'s Face Reconstructed

Modern reconstructions of Tutankhamun's face by three different teams: (1) Egyptian, (2) French and (3) American.

[Aled]

is the issue of premature birth ever taken in to account? They look like your typical prem-baby!

[Menydh]

How many prematurely born individuals in a same area or among a same type, would we be speaking about?

For a given type to have been identified as such, I presume that there must exist a more or less considerable number of individuals sharing those traits, in an indentifiable area, plus others dispersed.

It doesn't sound like a probability to me.

[Roberto]

I have a recessive low jaw plus a potruding chin , maybe the recessing jaw is a Neanderthal trait that pops up every now and again , could be the evidence of an ancient miscegenetion occored between Neanderthal and CroMag.

[Menydh]

As far as I know, a skeleton of an hybrid between a Crogmagnon and a Neanderthal were found years ago.

But this skeleton belonged to a speciment of a very young age, so it was presumed that, although it might have been possible for the two species to reproduce with each other, the resulting hybrid would not have had the ability to reproduce. That it was a skeleton of a young age also pointed to that it would have been short-lived as a result of an inherited incompatibility between the two species.

However, I'm sure that more recent findings and studies must be available, though so far I've heard of none that suggested that there is any Neanderthal genetics in modern humans.

[jarlSigvald]

It is interesting. There are many such individuals in the album "Die Somatologie der Norwerger" on HBF - Human Biodiversity Forum If you analyse the most Nordid individuals of the whole Album (there are about 20-25 of them, most of whom I posted in the other thread here), you will clearly see that these guys are rather thin, short and Med (or just smaller) as far as means are concerned... While others, with more prominent chins are rather bigger and broader.

Most of the anthropologists - Guenther, Czekanowski or Coon did not write anything about receding chins as a Nordid trait. Schwideztki noted it was more common in the German "Rhine typ"... Do you know anything about the Rhine type???


Basing on the data and the material from the Somatologie der Norwerger it's seems that there are three sorts of Nordid there:

1 Shorter, thinner and more Med with receding chin

2 Slightly bigger, broader with prominent chin

3 Some forms in between

It is also clear that receding chins are found among the Meds as well... Now, I wonder what is the origin of these chins... The main questions here are:

- Why Guenther and many others regarded them as a unNordid trait???

- What is the "Rhine type"? What's it's history and racial composition???

- Why pronounced chin goes in pair with less Med and more robust skull?

and perhaps the most important...

- Did Coon and the authors of the materials he used on Swedish and Norwegian Nordids classify such "chimpanzoid" individuals with receding chins as full Halstatt Nordid type???

If yes... than probably they've lowered the "classic Nordid" means by few to several mm.

If no... than what did they classify them as???




What do you think about it? What might it be? Natural variation, admix of other race? Were those individuals were classified as Nordids by earlier Norwegian anthropologists? Probably yes as:

1. "Nordid" is a broad term and encompasses also individuals who are not 100% Nordid. These guys look Nordid overall though many of them has obviously some other admixes...

2. It is reasonable to assume thriving Nordicism before WWII would result in anthropologists striving to depict their nation/country as much Nordid as possible... Thus many types not purely Nordid, but which could pass as Nordid were classified as simply "Nordid".

3. Most of the Nordid-looking (predominantly Nordid) element was (before WWII!) thus classified generally as "Nordid".

I think Coon probably took advantage of it while defining his classic Nordid means as this would prove his theory... of the Nordid race as a branch of Meds. Such terms as "Classic Nordid" or "Halstatt Nordid" had not existed before. Anthropologists were even classifying Falids as Nordids! In 1930's when Coon was writing his "Races" there was no common conclusion on the origin of Nordids. His theory was entirely new and he was the first one who came up with such a definite and detailed conclusion of the history of this particular racial type.

The only problem is... Coon never visited Sweden nor Norway to see those individuals (who provided the data for the Nordid means) and examine them personally He only used the ready-made product - the findings and the means. Basing on this data and the fact Sweden and Norway are the most Nordid nations he concluded that these means have to be the truly "classic Nordid". Thus many such rather unNordid individuals with strongly retreating chins could have been intentionally or unintentionally classified as "pure/classic/Halstatt type" Nordids.

Now, if this was the case than many of Coon's metrical conclusions on the "classical Nordid" and the whole Nordid type in general are flawed and inaccurate.

[Carnyx]

Why this sort of chin couldn't occur in any types? Why should it be related to a phenotype especially? Those guys whom you posted the pics of were the living proof Nordids can have a weak chin too. The typical Nordid isn't supposed to have a receding chin, but I think it's quite clear that not all individuals are typical of their type.

[Agrippa]

As I said elsewhere, in more progressive racial types they are mostly the result of constitutional variation (very hypomorphic/Asthenic with low masculinity, individuals have weaker jaws and bones) or pathological developments.

The individuals posted are by far not all the same. Furthermore the typical Aurignacoid - so Nordid too - chin goes more downward than forward.

This is an Asthenic individual which chin looks rather primitive - beside the height:


Whereas most other individuals have a progressive jaw form and are often not even on an ideal Ear-Eye line which is the standard position for anthropological photographs, thats why it looks different.

Compare:
The Cromagnoid Type

The positive chin develoment of Aurignacids must be much stronger than in Cromagnids to be as prominent, because of the angle and facial length.

[jarlSigvald]

Well, I have to agree with you. Obviously the receding chin does not have to be related to a particular racial type. Though there is some evidence it's not the case - look at the Eickstedt's "Rhine type". I need to go through the Album once again and see if I can find darker, unNordid individuals with the same trait.

Treat my posts here not as some sort of conlusion aspiring to be full and definite. I am only considering this trait as a possible mark of an admix of some other racial type/subtype. It's an assumption, a hypothesis and I am trying to find out if it can unfold some interesting facts. Why am I doing this?


1. To find out if this trait is typical of some racial type. Perhaps it's not typical? I do not know. Guenther and few others saw such chins as unNordid. I wonder why?

2. Eickstedt reported that they are more common among "the Rhine type". I wonder what the Rhine type exactly is and what's it's history.

3. I got interested in Coon's works and his conclusions on the Nordid race. I wonder if the works on which he based his theories took such receding-chinned individuals as full-blown Nordids, leading Coon to include their metrics in defining the "classic Nordid".

- If yes and if this trait is "not typical" of Nordids, then like I said - his conclusions are flawd.
- If not then what did they take them for??? Just "Nordids"? If so then they should be sorted further if we want to define what is "typica" or "classic". Coon did not do so.

As you said - Agrippa and Carnyx - these guys defnitely look Nordid overall...

Those guys whom you posted the pics of were the living proof Nordids can have a weak chin too. The typical Nordid isn't supposed to have a receding chin, but I think it's quite clear that not all individuals are typical of their type.14 Hours Ago 16:49

And I fully agree with you here. The only problem arises when we are trying to define the essence of the "classic" or typical Nordid (like Coon did) and include such individuals in our pool of "classic Nords" on which we are going to base our conclusion. If we are to conclude on a perfect typological definition of the Nordid racial type we need to choose proper material... I fear Coon did not examine his material personally, but only extrapolated conclusions of Scandinacian anthropologists who never claimed their Nordids were all "classic" and "typical"...

[jarlSigvald]

Any comments? suggestions?

[Menydh]

You mean other than that Nordid is probably an umbrella terms that includes different and probably unrelated types?