Ukrainians threaten Orthodox split

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by bocian

Grow up man.

As soon as you grow up.

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Yeah right...like always your support your rants by what? Peanuts?

Ok, I promise to give you peanuts, if you stop trolling.

If anyone was forcefully(I don't know what forcedly is )

Look it up in a dickshunnery.

converted those were Catholics(Croats) who suddenly became Serbs

<b>Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition Macropaedia, Vol. 29, page 1111
Quote:

In Croatia [in 1941] the indigenous fascist regime set about a policy of "racial purification" that went beyond even Nazi practices. Minority groups such as Jews and Gypsies were to be eliminated as were the Serbs: it was declared that one-third of the Serbian population would be deported, one-third converted to Roman Catholicism, and one third liquidated. ... Ustasha bands terrorized the countryside. The partial collaboration of the Catholic clergy in these practices continues to be a component of Serb-Croat suspicion.

</b>
More quotes like this at: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/ustashi.html

Orthodox Churches such as Serbian for example was used quite efficiently to increase the Serbian corpus and convert other nations not only to different religion but it also converted them to "serbdom".

You play too many video games.

How is a building supposed to convert anyone?

Dissolution by the west?!?! You've really lost your mind....look even your trusted ally Polak has abandoned you...

You're trolling too much. I'm warning you.

Polak is not my "trusted ally", he was just trying to educate you on genetics. A subject he knows a lot about, and you know nothing.
( neither did you show interest in genetics, until a study about Y-hg's of Bosnia appeared 2 months ago ).

[Awar]

Originally Posted by bocian

Well, I can't speak for all, but Polish Nationalism historically has been very much intertwined with Catholicism and Language--a huge part of the culture...but not to the point where other Christian denominations or any other religion was persecuted because of it.

Similarly to any other European nation.

I have never claimed wetsreners to better than Russia, and you know it very well. The problem is that you are looking at Ukraine from a distance, and actually it is you who is looking at the whole situation from a very naive, wetsrn point of view. You are totally disregarding the history of the region...as if it had none, and trying to pit everything wrong into one big Catholic 'stew'.

Nope. If you read the thread back again, you'll see that I mentioned Catholicism only as one of the factors. The fact that you ( catholics ) emphasized the role of Catholicism in this thread, is because you found yourself insulted at my suggestion that the Vatican may have a role in destabilizing Ukraine.

Ukraine isn't as much split on religious lines as it is on specific cultural ones, and it always has been. Specific Russian and Polish mentalities (as similar and different as they are) have torn that place apart for centuries, and have left their mark on the country. Yet these people, the 'Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Cossacks or whetever else they were known as in history, have themselves been at fault, causing chaos in both Poland and Russia, and for a very long time not being able to decide who they belong to (if any) where their sympathies lie, or who they should ally with next. Language issues and convenience have played a much larger role in Ukrainian issues, than religion or the Vatican has.

Again, it WAS one of the factors, along with imperialist influences of
many European empires, and today, the neo-colonialism of USA, interests of EU, NATO, etc. etc.

None of it means that Ukraine should be split up, but to this day, many Ukrainians themselves are torn, many are pro-Russian but maybe just as many are anti-Russian and pro-west, and this has nothing to do with the Catholic church or the west meddling in it's affairs, but much more to do with the suffering inflicted by their' natural allies'.

Undisputably so, just, this doesn't have anything to do with historical injustices, but, more with creating potential for future historical injustices.

The Pope, AFAIK, didn't have a hidden agenda, he wanted to bring the churches closer, that's all. Your theory stinks of 'ZOG'.

Sure, the Pope is always a good guy dressed in white, who does good around the world, wanting nothing in return.

That's right, it's the interest of the 'big ones' who sometimes use religion for it's purposes, but why single out the Vatican and Catholicism? To say the least, it isn't fair.

I didn't 'single it out'.

To be honest I thought you of all people see the world a little bit different from everyone else.
What makes you think Russia's policies are the right ones, or any better than 'western' ones?

They aren't. But, neither are US policies, which you seem to be supporting here. "Liberating" Ukraine, just to enslave it for themselves.

Happened lots of times before, in different eras, with different players,
but the same scenario.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Awar

Polak is not my "trusted ally", he was just trying to educate you on genetics. A subject he knows a lot about, and you know nothing.
( neither did you show interest in genetics, until a study about Y-hg's of Bosnia appeared 2 months ago ).

Umm, trusted ally, If I may interupt. I think he was referring to me, you know, being a Polak and all.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Awar

More quotes like this at: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/ustashi.html

Ahem...

We are pleased to announce that one of our articles got published in the influential Israeli periodical Arutz Sheva.

We, Serbian-American editors of Srpska Mreza insist on strengthening History-long good relationship between Serbian and Jewish people. Our bond is a strong one. For centuries, the suffering of our two peoples is the same. Our enemies are the same. Intolerance, racism, Nazis and Islam fundamentalists are our common enemy. Mass graves where Jews and Serbs are buried together stretch all across ex-Yugoslavia and are the proof of our common suffering and our eternal bond.

http://www.srpska-mreza.com

Is it really a reliable source ?

[Vojvoda]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Is it really a reliable source ?

Is this a better "reliable" source for you then?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Ahem...
Is it really a reliable source ?

It's a site where various quoted sources are available.

You can disagree with the editors, or their conclusions,
but on the page I gave, they neatly quoted reliable sources.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Awar

Similarly to any other European nation.

Not exactly.

Originally Posted by Awar

Nope. If you read the thread back again, you'll see that I mentioned Catholicism only as one of the factors. The fact that you ( catholics ) emphasized the role of Catholicism in this thread, is because you found yourself insulted at my suggestion that the Vatican may have a role in destabilizing Ukraine.

No, I don't feel insulted as a Catholic, I feel mistified as to what your reasoning is.

Originally Posted by Awar

Again, it WAS one of the factors, along with imperialist influences of
many European empires, and today, the neo-colonialism of USA, interests of EU, NATO, etc. etc.

Yes, and I'm sure that it's possible that Russia has it's interests as well...as it always has.

Originally Posted by Awar

Undisputably so, just, this doesn't have anything to do with historical injustices, but, more with creating potential for future historical injustices.

Sure, but tell that to the anti-Russian Ukrainian, or even an objective one, and ask him where many of Ukraines injustices stemmed from, and while you're at it ask him who he feels might be the bigger threat. This isn't saying that Russia necessarily is the bigger threat, or even a threat to begin with, but it's hard to change peoples perceptions. Empires tend to exploit these beliefs for their own benefit.

Originally Posted by Awar

Sure, the Pope is always a good guy dressed in white, who does good around the world, wanting nothing in return.

Ok, you're right, he's coming to get you.

Originally Posted by Awar

I didn't 'single it out'.

Yes, you did.

Originally Posted by Awar

They aren't. But, neither are US policies, which you seem to be supporting here.

Wrong conclusion. And please don't try to make me the 'Pro-American', I've seen this little tactic used before.

Originally Posted by Awar

"Liberating" Ukraine, just to enslave it for themselves.

Yeah, like Russia liberated Ukraine from Poland and enslaved it for over 300 years?

Originally Posted by Awar

Happened lots of times before, in different eras, with different players,
but the same scenario.

Sure.

[Ebusitanus]

This thread is hilarious I must say

[Menydh]

Great. An Eastern Orthodox vs Western Catholic fight with conspiracy theories included, bringing also a fight between a Croatian and a Serb (how very unusual).

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Awar

A wolf in sheep skin, then?

The huge political influence of Vatican certainly isn't based on the size of its military.

The Vatican's "huge political influence" relies solely on the strength of it's practioners and their will to shape thing according to their faith.
The Vatican appealed against the Iraq War. The Pope appealed with Dubya to stop the Death Penalty in his state. The Vatican appealed with the EU to at least give God or Christianity a mention in the new constitution. The Vatican requests that "Catholic nations" do not legalise artifical contraception, homosexual marriage, etc. I think we can see from the results how much influence the Vatican has with Secular governments. They don't even pay a blind bit of notice.

No, but, Eastern Europe is one of those times when their interests
are same.

The Vatican won't even hold a ceremony to consecrate Russia to the Sacred Heart for fear of offending anyone. I'm not sure how much will they have with regards to Eastern Europe or anywhere else. Evangelism gave way to Ecumenical dialogue and "tolerance" mid-way through the last century.

Should I say the same about all the other remarks made by you and others in this thread?

In response to your claims, you mean?
No disrespect, AWAR, but some of them difficult for me to take seriously.

I'm not devoted to it. In fact, I'd rather if it didn't exist, and it wasn't used today, in this way, to cause conflicts.

Absolutely everything can be used to cause conflicts. Religion, Land, Resources, Trade, Money, Politics, ad infinitum.
The only real solution would be to eliminate the human species altogther.
Failing that, conflict is something which one has to accept as part of reality, unpleasant as it may be.

What makes you so certain of that?

Perhaps the church sees the Liberals, Feminists etc. as a fad which will blow over in a few decades.

The Church sees them all as a progression of heresies that have been progressing from the 18th Century onwards. Liberalism, Americanism, Modernism, etc. This is evidenced by Papal Encyclicals throughout the 20th century. Rather than fads, it views them as a progressive descent into moral and actual anarchy.

Snidey remark, not worth responding to.

Nah, that was tongue-in-cheek. Not snidey

[Nerthus]

This is an interesting issue however.

One one hand, people may think that if each Orthodox country had its own Orthodox Church, it would give it a bit more of a national character. But I also doubt the motives. At least some of what Awar says makes sense.

Not rarely is religion used as a political tool. And what if each Catholic country would want its own independent Catholic Church as well? This would only lead to move division. Religious struggles... as if there weren't enough problems in Europe already... I think religion could be given a national character and adapted to the national realities of each country without forming all these small fractions. Question is, how much of it is it really over religion? Like Awar said, Churches are empty. Would the ordinary Church goer even want these kinds of fights?

[Phlegethon]

The main problem is that most orthodox (autocephalic) churches are heavily corrupted and degenerated because they are politicians rather than men of the faith. The churches are simply branches of the state and always adapt to whatever is fashionable (communism, anti-communism, Milton Friedman capitalism, McDonald's, bubblegum).

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

This is an interesting issue however.

One one hand, people may think that if each Orthodox country had its own Orthodox Church, it would give it a bit more of a national character. But I also doubt the motives.

There might be more behind it than religion, that is possible.

At least some of what Awar says makes sense.

Not rarely is religion used as a political tool. And what if each Catholic country would want its own independent Catholic Church as well?

they would cease to be Catholic and become a more of a Protestant National church like the Church of England, Church of Scotland, etc

This would only lead to move division.

Certainly possible.

Religious struggles... as if there weren't enough problems in Europe already... I think religion could be given a national character and adapted to the national realities of each country without forming all these small fractions. Question is, how much of it is it really over religion? Like Awar said, Churches are empty. Would the ordinary Church goer even want these kinds of fights?

I guess only individuals could answer that. I doubt your average Church goer wants conflict. However, whether they will aquiesce merely to prevent conflict is another question