Russians vs Baltic Finns & Balts

[Ross]

Many people, after reading too much of Guenther, believe that most of Nordic blood in Eastern Europe is concentrated in the Baltic States, and that frequency of Nordic types is diminishing to the South and the East.

However, that not true.

While population of te Baldic States is significantly blonder, the morphology tells a different story. (*)



Populations:

1. Vepses
2. Estonians
3. Estonians
4. Latvians
5. Lithuanians

6. Arkhangelsk government Russians
7. Tver government Russians (it's Valdaic/Baltic zone)
8. Novgorod government Russians
9. South-Eastern Russians

Data:
1. Number
2. Stature
3. Wavy hairs (%)
4. Beard growth (points)
5. Fair har (%)
6. Pure light eyes (%)
7. Head length
8. Head breadth
9. CI
10. Sloping forehead (points)
11. Browridges development (points)
12. Byz. diameter
13. Facial height
14. FI
15. Horizontal facial profile (points)
16. NI
17. Nasal bridge height (points)
18. Nasal form (%):
- concave
- convex
19. Nasal tip (points)

*It has to be noted, that the Baltic populations are blonder than Russians only in the category of fair hairs (9-26), but not in the category of light hairs (7-26). Also percentage of pure light/brown eyes is not drastically different.

NB. Also note, that the Latvian group represents Aizpute - in other words it's the most "Nordic". On average Latvians are even more robust and brachycephalic.

[Gil]

Interesting, though I must say that blondism does not equate to nordic, blondism is common in all mediterranean populations and even among non-caucasoids (like australian aboriginals). Likewise with fair eyes and skin depigmentation.

I think one has to make a stand about what is and what isn't "nordic". Are we talking morphology or osteology? Because frankly i've seen many people state they are nordic because their hair is blonde and they have blue/green/grey eyes and they clearly were not.
The concept itself is a mix of innuendo and self-propagating lies and badly defined concepts.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Ross

Many people, after reading too much of Guenther, believe that most of Nordic blood in Eastern Europe is concentrated in the Baltic States, and that frequency of Nordic types is diminishing to the South and the East.

However, that not true.

While population of te Baldic States is significantly blonder, the morphology tells a different story. (*)

It is my understanding that the Baltid types is morphologically closer to the Alpinid types. Probably in the direction of Sergi's(?) theory of a division between an Eurafrican big group of Nordids and Mediterranids, and an Eurasian big group of Baltids and Alpinids?

However little sense it may make to the profane..

What's your opinion of this?

[MisterSinister]

The most notable thing here is that the Finnish related vepses are by far the blondest according to this table.

The Novgorod Russians are to a large extent mixed up with ethnic finns which gives them a fairly high percentage of blondism.

Blondism in Northern Russia is clearly a legacy from the indigenous Finnic peoples.

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by MisterSinister

The most notable thing here is that the Finnish related vepses are by far the blondest according to this table.

The Novgorod Russians are to a large extent mixed up with ethnic finns which gives them a fairly high percentage of blondism.

Blondism in Northern Russia is clearly a legacy from the indigenous Finnic peoples.

Finns gave Russia blond people, how stupid.

[Gottslav]

Originally Posted by Seekers

Finns gave Russia blond people, how stupid.

Not only that. Finns gave rock'n'roll to us and taught us how to make pancakes

[LatvianDude]

first of all cromagnons usually have just as light or lighter hair colour as nordids.
second- nordid is not the only europeid race type wich is not robust and brachycephalic there are also (dinaric, pointid, etc types)
3rd -what exactly makes that small town aizpute more nordid then the rest of latvian population?

while i agree that the nordid type is not dominant in the baltic countries
(the majority of latvians belong to the baltid type imo), it is even less common in russia, belarus, etc.
i have seen a few nordid russians but their numbers are very small & insignificant considering that there are 140 000 000 russians in the world

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Seekers

Finns gave Russia blond people, how stupid.

Pretty much the case in Northern Russia. Most central and Southern Russians tend to stem from Southern European roots.

[3rdEye]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

Pretty much the case in Northern Russia. Most central and Southern Russians tend to stem from Southern European roots.

You must mean that northern Russians and Finns are pretty much the same (sub-)racially. I noted that a friend of yours that you posted for classification was similar to female tennis player Dementieva, to the extent that I said they share the same phenotype.

[PeterThaGreat]

Originally Posted by Seekers

You must mean that northern Russians and Finns are pretty much the same (sub-)racially. I noted that a friend of yours that you posted for classification was similar to female tennis player Dementieva, to the extent that I said they share the same phenotype.

Northern Russians and Finns characterized by genetic similarities as these regions of Russia have been traditionally Fenno-Ugrian but went through Russification or rather slavification. I don't know about racial similarities as Russia is too heterogenous: Asian style R1a1 in Russia - Human Biodiversity Forum for making any definitive conclusions. According to Agrippa, Northern Slavs and Baltic-Finns are very similar in physical structure (Nordid-Osteuropid) although I think the Pontid/Mediterranian strain is way more pronounced in Russians than in Baltic-Finnics.

[Exeter]

Pontids are not brachycephalic and robust. They tend to be slim-built. Their features are elongated.

Originally Posted by LatvianDude

second- nordid is not the only europeid race type wich is not robust and brachycephalic there are also (dinaric, pointid, etc types)

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat

Northern Russians and Finns characterized by genetic similarities as these regions of Russia have been traditionally Fenno-Ugrian but went through Russification or rather slavification. I don't know about racial similarities as Russia is too heterogenous: Asian style R1a1 in Russia - Human Biodiversity Forum for making any definitive conclusions. According to Agrippa, Northern Slavs and Baltic-Finns are very similar in physical structure (Nordid-Osteuropid) although I think the Pontid/Mediterranian strain is way more pronounced in Russians than in Baltic-Finnics.

Russia is a big country and obviously not all of them can be of the same type. Even in Finland there is a strong North - South division, in Russia there are differences "in all directions" and Southern Russians have of course more non-Nordoid-Osteuropid influences than Northern ones.
The Pontid, Taurid and Alpinoid strains are of course stronger in Russians (even more so in Ukrainians), but especially in the South. As you said, there is (natural and expected) variation, heterogenity.

[LatvianDude]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Pontids are not brachycephalic and robust. They tend to be slim-built. Their features are elongated.

that is exactly what my post suggests, maybe you shoul read more carefuly

[Loorberitega Pärjatu]

I must admit that I don't know anything about those racial theories. Having lived in here (Estonia) you get used to see who is Estonian, who is Russian, who is Latvian etc. It doesn't have anything to do with hair or eye colour, you just feel it in some way that I am not able to explain. Those differences can be unnoticed by third nations.

And then, it is a fact that really big part of Russians living in Leningrad, Novgorod or Pskov oblasts are assimilated Finnics. Also in Tver oblast there have been Karelians who fled there from Lutheran Swedish rule.

[toRRone]

Originally Posted by Loorberitega Pärjatu

I must admit that I don't know anything about those racial theories. Having lived in here (Estonia) you get used to see who is Estonian, who is Russian, who is Latvian etc. It doesn't have anything to do with hair or eye colour, you just feel it in some way that I am not able to explain. Those differences can be unnoticed by third nations.

i guess i may understand what you mean. i wouldn't call it a general rule but i know some Poles, besides me, who can easily distinguish most foreigners judging just by the look. i discussed this issue with some friends and one of the theory was that in many cases the shape of lips, cheeks or even nose could be somehow determined by the language respective individual use in everyday life. that's why i believe i can point those of my compatriots that were raised or have lived long years outside Poland.

i would like to know your opinion on that... whether it might have more to do with reality than with coincidence... or is nothing more than heresy in the light of antropological science.