Mongoloid admixture in Central Europe (N. Cheboksarov)

[Ross]

N. Cheboksarov:

[in comparison with Russians] Germans more frequently have strongly protruding cheekbones, shief and narrow eye slit, upper eye lid fold, low nasal root and broad nasal bridge… Comparison of Germans of Scheidt with various Eastern European groups – Russian, Finnish and even Turkic shows that Mongoloid traits are spread in Central Europe no less, but rather more than in Eastern Europe. By many basic racial traits Hannover and Baden Germans turn out being “more Mongloid” than Voronezh Russians or Vychegda Komi, and only a bit less Mongoloid than Turkics of Northern Caucasus, half of whom is partially Mongoloid… presence of certain Mongoloid traits is established on German skulls from Bavaria (Saller, 75), Franconia (Heger, 57), Hannover (Gaushild, 52; Saller, 77). But with most clarity Mongoloid admixture shows itself in the Longobard sample of the 6th century from Nikitch in Burgerland (Eastern Austria), studied by G. Muller… in the article by G. Muller also the skulls of the Germanic tripe of Gepidae from Croatia are mentioned, studied by Lebzelter, which show even greater intermixture with Mongoloids (65).

In the light if the above facts it’s interesting to recall the old works by Galder, who among Ancient Germanic skulls from “regular burials” of Wurtenberg found about 20% of intermixed “Turanic-Germanic” forms (55, P. 14). By “Turanic” type Galder undoubtably mean Mongoloids proper, as he considered a broad face, protruding cheekbones, flattish non-protruding nose with broad nasal bridge and lower jaw of small height (Ibid, P. 5) as characteristic traits of this type. Skulls with “Turanic” traits are concentrated, according to Galder, in the valley of Upper Danube from Gynsburg (?) to Sigmaringen (?) (Ibid., P. 13). Validity of the conclusion of presence of Mongoloid elements in the composition of the Germanic tribes of Central Europe is backed by control comparison of images of German skulls with similar materials from Sweden, published in the remarkable album by Retzius… Mongoloid types have spread over territories of contemporary Austria, Tirol, Bavaria and Wurtenberg, where their traces clearly show themselves on skeletal remains, and also among contemporary population… It may seem strange, at the first thought, that contemporary Germans frequently have more Mongoloid traits in anthropological phenotype than many groups of Eastern Europe. But it may seem strange only at the first thought, as greater Mongoloidness of Bavarians in comparison with Russians is explained by the fact that bearers of Mongoloid elements – the Black Sea nomads have been settling not the territories they were passing in their migration, but the territories of their destination… Appeared in the end of the 1st millennium BC, Germanic tribes were anthropologically intermixed already in the period of their ethnogenesis. They included not only various Europeoid racial types of the second tier, but also intermediary “Uralo-Lappid” complexes. Close contact with nomads in 4-10th centures increased amount of Mongoloid admixture in Germanics.

Source: Н.Н.Чебоксаров. Монголоидные элементы в населении Центральной Европы.//Уч. записки МГУ. М.1941. Вып.63.стр.235-270.

(N.N. Cheboksarov. Mongoloid elements in population of Central Europe// Scientific notes of Moscow State University. Moscow. 1941. Issue 63. Pages 235-270)

[Euclides]

Strongly protruding cheekbones, low nasal root and broad nasal bridge are signs of paleolithic ancestry, don´t means ''mongoloidism'' per se.Modern genetics shows that Russians are much more uralic/mongolid
than Germans.It´s interesting to note that it was produced in 1941, during the German/Russian conflict in second WW....

[Milesian]

Everything east of Broxburn is Mongolid and Oriental as far as I'm concerned

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Euclides

It´s interesting to note that it was produced in 1941, during the German/Russian conflict in second WW....

I suppose this was stalinist pseudo-science or something like that, that is, propaganda and nothing else.
I remember Germans were called "hunes" in WWI. History repeats.

Btw this Ross thinks Russians are just the only Europeans of pure and noble breed meanwhile the other ones are mongrels with African or Asiatic mixed.
Just in the who-is-whiter style that you can find in SF or another frikie-sites of this kind.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Originally Posted by Euclides

Strongly protruding cheekbones, low nasal root and broad nasal bridge are signs of paleolithic ancestry, don´t means ''mongoloidism'' per se.Modern genetics shows that Russians are much more uralic/mongolid
than Germans.It´s interesting to note that it was produced in 1941, during the German/Russian conflict in second WW....

Uralic? If you take N3 to be Uralic, then yes (but that's another question).

Mongoloid? According to haploid markers, I don't really think so. I'm referring to figures by Richards/Gonzalez and Malyarchuk.

[Hrvoje]

Laic question:

Are Lapponoid and Ladoganish sub-race considered to be Mongoloid?
By Mongoloid here I mean phenotype affected by East Asian invaders.
Or are they "autochthonous" Paleolithic population of area,
which has merely developed and displays affinity towards Mongoloid physique.

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Hrvoje

Laic question:

Are Lapponoid and Ladoganish sub-race considered to be Mongoloid?
By Mongoloid here I mean phenotype affected by East Asian invaders.
Or are they "autochthonous" Paleolithic population of area,
which has merely developed and displays affinity towards Mongoloid physique.

Well, that's actually a very interesting question that has two answers:

1st: Lapp and Ladogan types are branches of the Europid type, that, like the other branches, due to environmental pressure, genetic drift and evolutionary pressure developed their traits, without non-europid admixture. (note that non-europid admixture is present in ALL europid groups because there are no homogeneous racial types)

2nd: Lapp and Ladogan types are branches of the Europid type that are a stabilized blend of europid and non-europid (mongolid), though one cannot speak of admixture because the type became stabilized and as such might show traits that are "non-europid" but they were "gained", due to mixing, centuries ago.

Personally I think the first answer is the right one and the second is just pure WP sh*t-talk, usually propagated by pseudo-racialists.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Originally Posted by Hrvoje

Laic question:

Are Lapponoid and Ladoganish sub-race considered to be Mongoloid?
By Mongoloid here I mean phenotype affected by East Asian invaders.
Or are they "autochthonous" Paleolithic population of area,
which has merely developed and displays affinity towards Mongoloid physique.

"We conclude that the phylogeography of mtDNA and
Y-chromosome variants that correspond to the maternal
and paternal gene pools of the Saami does not provide
any evidence for the Saami population arising among
678 Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:661–682, 2004
the northernmost Uralic-speaking populations—Siberian
Ugric and Samoyedic speakers—or among any other
aboriginal Siberians. The Samoyeds are the least genetically
close to the Saami among the people of the Uralic
language family, whereas nearly all of the mtDNA and
Y-chromosomal heritage of the Saami can be adequately
explained within the European pools of the two haploid
genetic systems. This genetics-based reconstruction (fig.
4) is in agreement with the reconstruction of the spread
of Ahrensburgian and Swiderian Mesolithic technologies
in northern Europe, linking it with population expansion
that can be likely traced back to the post–Last Glacial
Maximum recolonization of the European north (Torroni
et al. 2001; Tambets et al. 2003). The results also
stress that the grouping of populations according to language
families should be used exclusively only in a linguistic
context."

http://www.oxfordancestors.com/paper...04%20Saami.pdf

[tabbs]

hi this is only a test!!

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by tabbs

hi this is only a test!!

Congratulations, it worked

[M.R.]

I guess this is the tactic of accusing someone the very same thing other accuse you, ie. Russians having Mongoloid admixture, so the answer of some Russian racialist is the bizzare theory that there is some Mongoloid admixture in central Europe...

Anyway, even if it was, I couldn't care less, it's still funny to think about it. Same goes for Russians, whether they have Mongoloid admixture or not is of zero importance to their national identity.

[drgs]

Two independent studies (of ethnic russians only)

SpringerLink - Journal Article

[Mitochondrial DNA variation in Russian population...[Genetika. 2002] - PubMed Result

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Everything east of Broxburn is Mongolid and Oriental as far as I'm concerned

Not anymore I'm afraid!

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Broxburn is a small town in West Lothian, Scotland located 12 miles (19 km) west of Edinburgh on the A8 road. It is situated approximately 5 miles (9 km) from Edinburgh Airport, and to the north of Livingston. The town had a population of 12,892[1] according to the 2001 Census.

A commuter town serving the M8 corridor into Edinburgh and the industrial areas of Livingston, Broxburn has seen a recent increase in immigration, especially from Poland, broadening its cultural diversity.