Italy in world war 2 website

[Marulus]

S&H, what about the parachutists form the division "Folgore" (Thunder) at El Alamein? I did not find them on that site.

[Strengthandhonour]

I forgot about that division.
They won many battles without supplies. Like many Italian troops out of Europe, they got the short end of the stick.
"I wish to say that in all my life I have never encountered soldiers like those of the Folgore"
~British General Hughes

[Strengthandhonour]

Originally Posted by Veritas Aequitas

Good site, and great posters S & H. Got anymore links to any other sites?

If you can be more specific, I can probably help.
But if you haven't seen it yet, Axis History Factbook: Home has a very large collection of information about the Axis powers. Specially the message board.

[Menydh]

To be honest, in Spain the Italians were not very highly regarded, be it by the Reds or by The Nationals. And their defeat at the Battle of Guadalajara, no matter what it may be speculated --the Germans pointed to technical and leadership defficiencies, and the Italians pointed to the metereology--, did not help to change this view.

The Italian divisions of volunteers (CTV) were reorganized from that point on, and engaged only in support actions of the Spanish Nationals, for the most part.

Mussolini needed to clean the affront of Guadalajara, and sent the order O vincire o non si torna ("Or there is a victory, or there is no return to home"). However the truth is that the Italians were already evacuating the wounded.

The opportunity came near to the end of the war in the north front, with the advance over Santander. And the Italian CTV managed to take Santander. However, this would be far from a glorious deed.

The defense of Santander had been left by the Government of The Republic to the Basque Government and its Gudaris (fighers or warriors, in Basque). The truth is that the only real Basque Gudaris there were the Nationals Navarran brigades, made up mostly of Traditionalists. The troops organized by the Basque Government did not pose any resistance, and they were usually found in search of National troops to surrender. Further, the Basque Government resolved that if they surrendered to the Italians they would get a better deal, than if they fell in the hands of The Nationals.

Inspite this all, the highly motorized Italian troops had to share the honour of the conquest with the Navarran Brigades who were on foot.

Add to this that the frequency which the Italian troops were sent to the rearguard to rest, provoked a disregard of the Spanish.

The problem, as it appears, was on the one hand that many of them had volunteered without knowing what the Spanish Civil War was about, in the belief that it would be a quick, easy and victorious walk through. On the other hand, the high ranks were a mixture of military and political officers, which surely brought a degree of inefficiency to it. I would point here to the same (and even increased) mistake in the Spanish Republican Army, where academy officers and chiefs were summarily replaced by political commisaires.

[Strengthandhonour]

The interesting thing about the blackshirts, is that as you said volunteers. I don't know if you have heard this story Mynydd but I am sure you might get some enjoyment out of it.
One of the biggest army divisions at Spain was the Littorio. Even though it was considered a regular army division it was far from it.The volunteer "corps" that were sent to Spain were an absolute joke and it was due to Mussolini's horrible political moves. The volunteers were mostly 30 years and up, unemployed who had officially been signed up as colonists for the African colonies. Ironically, some were even actor doubles that had been hired for the propaganda Italian films of the time about Scipio Africanus.
It was a nice surprise when suddenly they were in Spain and they were instantly handed rifles and told to go fight.
It was a disaster.

[Menydh]

Well, that's more or less what I pointed to:

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The problem, as it appears, was on the one hand that many of them had volunteered without knowing what the Spanish Civil War was about, in the belief that it would be a quick, easy and victorious walk through. On the other hand, the high ranks were a mixture of military and political officers, which surely brought a degree of inefficiency to it. I would point here to the same (and even increased) mistake in the Spanish Republican Army, where academy officers and chiefs were summarily replaced by political commisaires.

I don't know how a handful of them having been second line actors is significant to it.

From all I know, the Spanish military chiefs --starting at Franco-- were always eager to remove those troops. But they were indeed interested in military technology, especially in planes since the Republican Army had kept them all and the first Spanish squadron of the National Army was a loan of Italy. So it was probably a compromise with Mussolini, who had enviewed a propaganda triumph in Spain.

Likely the same with the German aviation. I don't think that the National Army chiefs enjoyed the idea of foreign intervention in the war.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

Actually, they aren't all amateur historians. Like I said, look at who wrote most of the articles. A lot are written by British and American scholars. So please, at least look over the site which I don't think you still have.

This website is a manifestation of work supported by amateur historians, history buffs and those interested in Italian World War Two history.

The Mussolini posters are there because they are associated with the period, most of the people that go to this site are history enthusiasts from the time period and find it interesting.

You'll probably find also many WN Americans fascinated with Italians fascism there.

How about staying alive? they did stay alive. Most of the time they just gave up, they didn't see a point on fighting.

So you think by giving up you're improving your chances of surviving? I wouldn't give up and give the enemy chance to do whatever he wants to me, just because I don't see a point in fighting that war. I don't know, this all sounds hard for me to believe.

If they didn't care about anything in war, why did they care about killing innocent population in Slovenia or sending them to concentration camps? And don't tell me this is just another politician fault, as Italians were eager to carry out executions.

Why didn't Germans have this mentality as well? They didn't fight in their own soil either and yet that didn't seem to be a problem for them. Maybe because they have more a "fighter" mentality, I don't know...

There also was, as you said yourself, good propaganda on Italian site during the war, you said that in many ways better than German...

Italians also didn't go much when the war was fought in their land...

I would correct myself a little, I wrote that Italians were cowards in ww2, more than Italians were cowards, there were disorganized and of little value as an army and as soldiers. There could have been of course some brave soldiers there, but that doesn't change the big picture. They didn't do much in ww2 and they constantly needed the help of Germans, they hardly conquered Albania, had a lot of problems in Greece until Germans came.. Not to mention the pre-war fighting against Ethiopia when Italians cowardly had to use the gas against an army on the level of stone age. And their humiliation in Albania in 1920. There were also crimes commited by Italians on civil population in Slovenia which I already mentioned before... All this doesn't seem much heroic to me.

[Strengthandhonour]

What Italy did in Slovenia was not heroic. I never claimed it was.
I never claimed mass murdering populations of people was heroic. But it happens in war. In Northern Italy near Torino there was a massacre done by the Germans against the Italian population. The trial was solved a year or two ago just now. It's one of the awful things about war.
As far as the historian aspect goes, they contribute articles from books as well. From books such as the great battles of history, of myths and man:Rommel and the Italians in North Africa,hand book of military forces of Italy,etc. I have read most of the books cited in the site and taken from articles so I can see their authenticity.
If there is no morale behind a war, how are you supposed to win it?
Mussolini entered world war II for his own self-fish deeds. Everytime Germany took something, Italy took something smaller. When Hitler told Mussolini that he wanted to wage war, Mussolini told him to hold it for a year or two while he modernized the army. Hitler didn't wait. Mussolini out of jealousy threw his army that was completely unprepared at France and Albania.
I am not claiming the Italian forces of world war II were a great triumphant heroic army. Far from it. Many hardships came to the Italian people due to the complete incompetence of il duce as far as military strategy went. He was not meant to be a military leader at all. I am trying to claim and fix a lot of the stereo-types of the war and their reasons and causes. Not all Italian soldiers were cowards, but provided the conditions they had to fight in, I am surprised they got as far as they did.
As far as not seeing a point in fighting a war goes, what would happen if Slovenia went to war with a neighboring country just for the hell of it? a politician decided to do so? would you fight that war blindly if your country asked you? or would you step in as an individual and say no, I don't agree with this war? I for one, would not fight a war for the blind obsessions of the ruler of the nation. I would only fight for my country if it needs to be defended.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

What Italy did in Slovenia was not heroic. I never claimed it was.
I never claimed mass murdering populations of people was heroic. But it happens in war. In Northern Italy near Torino there was a massacre done by the Germans against the Italian population. The trial was solved a year or two ago just now. It's one of the awful things about war.

No, it doesn't just "happen" in war. What Italians did was extreme even by war standards. Whining about Germans is pathetic to me, in the same way as some Italians whine about those Italians killed after ww2 by Yugoslav army, after all, you switched sides (like in ww1). It's not the same as if you just came to some country, occupy it and then murder innocent population.

If there is no morale behind a war, how are you supposed to win it?
Mussolini entered world war II for his own self-fish deeds. Everytime Germany took something, Italy took something smaller. When Hitler told Mussolini that he wanted to wage war, Mussolini told him to hold it for a year or two while he modernized the army. Hitler didn't wait. Mussolini out of jealousy threw his army that was completely unprepared at France and Albania.

I don't think that one year would change much. And I do believe that there was much morale in Italian army, I don't remember that they had any rebelion. Italians worshipped Mussolini after all.

As far as not seeing a point in fighting a war goes, what would happen if Slovenia went to war with a neighboring country just for the hell of it? a politician decided to do so? would you fight that war blindly if your country asked you? or would you step in as an individual and say no, I don't agree with this war? I for one, would not fight a war for the blind obsessions of the ruler of the nation. I would only fight for my country if it needs to be defended.

No, I wouldn't, but if I had to, I wouldn't surrender, but fight, for the sake of war yes. Better than surrender and let the enemy decide what will your faith be. After all, if not for everything else, you fight for your nation's honour, so no one can say that you're cowards. Slovenians did fought in such wars before, only time many of them surrendered and didn't want to fight was against Russia in ww1, because of pan-Slavic propaganda, I'm not proud on them. My great-grandfather was fighting there and didn't surrender though (he was more pro-German and also supported Hitler later in ww2).

Anyway, I guess Italians have different mentality, who knows, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not really judging them because of that, I even defended them sometimes from people here shouting that Italians are pussies, after all they are descendants of Romans and I regard particularly southern Italians and Sicilians as tough people and have a lot of respect for them because of their values. However I wouldn't consider them good soldiers though as part of organized army. I said Italians were cowards in ww2, this is from my perspective and view as a Slovenian, by my standards of what soldier should be. Again Italians would dissagree and I wouldn't consider them as 'wrong', but is rather just because the difference in mentality and opinions, and that's the beauty of Europe.

I'm saying this not to be taken wrong by any Italian here, I always had a lot of respect for Italians on this forum.

[Strengthandhonour]

I understand you are angry by the acts of some Italians to the Slovenians in world war II, but it happens in every war. Read throughout history and there is always a population that is greatly hurt due to a war. The German one wasn't the only example that Italy had from world war II. When the allies came thousands of women were raped by black colonial French soldiers out of revenge. The allies let them do it.
Mussolini was worshiped, but he was not worshiped for being a military hero. I respect him very much in fact, but I don't respect him for getting himself killed and purging my nation into a war and getting thousands killed. Mussolini was worshiped for sending poor southern Italian farmer boys to school, he was worshiped for saving many families from sinking into absolute poverty. For stopping the country from turning into a third world nation or a communist haven. Even when Italy started gaining colonies in Africa, Italians always had a rough time swallowing being superior to anyone. As I stated earlier, even with the Greek brothers.
The Mussolini from 1939 to 1945 is a totally different man. A man who became selfish and greedy and lost his sense to the Italian people. A man who with along Adolph Hitler forever tainted the name of fascism forever.

[M.R.]

It's not just something which can be excused with simple "happens in war", even if we take away all the killing etc, it's one thing, trying to destroy ones national identity and "Italianize" him is something else... As for Mussolini I have no respect for him, the man was a lunatic to me and maybe even a burden to your fascist movement. I'd had respect for Fascist Italy had they not occupied Slovenian territory before and during the war.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by orieleye

If Mussolini had done what Franco did, he might have ruled into the 70s too.

Looking at how bad Spain ended up after pacific transition to democracy, and seeing that Spain is even more plagued with devoted communists and leftists of any kind than Italy now is, being also Italy generally more bent towards conservative principles than Spain, I would say that the end of fascism in 1945 rather than in 1974 would mean nothing.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by M.R.

It's not just something which can be excused with simple "happens in war", even if we take away all the killing etc, it's one thing, trying to destroy ones national identity and "Italianize" him is something else... As for Mussolini I have no respect for him, the man was a lunatic to me and maybe even a burden to your fascist movement. I'd had respect for Fascist Italy had they not occupied Slovenian territory before and during the war.

Mussolini wasn't lunatic, he just suffered from a too long stay in power alone, as it had happened countless times to roman emperor, and this was documented by roman history, which was extensively studied in italian high schools at the time of Mussolini, a schoolteacher himself.

His social and economic achievements are well documented, and the framework of his social action wasn't touched until the nineties.

His defects were in his politics of conquest that was totally unrealistic for a patched up country with several drains and with an incomplete process of industrialization, substantially limited to padanian areas.

As of Slovenia and many other blunders, his calculations were that of man who had learned nothing from roman history.

But that is not lunacy, that's the effect of too much solitude in power with a stubborn refusal to discuss his proposals and strategies with any peer.

Unlike old wise medieval kings, Mussolini isolated himself in power: he had had the merit of destroying squabbling, ineffective and traitorous political parties, but he also refused any dialectic help from wise people he might have consulted in many fields.

In today's Iran there is no place of discussion on the basic values of the State, but there is