Multiculturalism in the Waffen SS and the WW2 Wehrmacht?

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

I agree with Mynydd.
Let's also remember for example that Mussolini considered himself the protector of Islam. Of course he only made this claim in hope to get support from muslims in British colonies and hoping they would rebel. He also did this to get the colonial troops to feel more inspired to fight for the Italians. I am sure if the third reich truly cared about this individuals they woudln't have murdered dozens of people in Central Asia and India just to study their racial phenotype, right?

Fascism helped a national riot in 1941 against the british domination but without the help of the weapons promised by Germany the riot was defeat by the british army with the aid of indian troops...
Sorry only italian: La Rivolta dell\'Iraq
However the ideology of the Ba'ath party is near to a fascist/national socialist one, nothing to do with islamism...

[Franze]

This is very outrageous for "the purity of the aryan race", very hypocritical thing.

[FlashVoyager]

They recruited anyone capable of fighting in some areas. This does not meet the definition of multiculturalism, which is a culturally diverse society/community.

[Theobald]

Yes, the Freies Arabien. About 600 Tunisians and Algerians, many of them became important nationalist leaders later. Some of them were also brought to France proper to fight the Resistance, along with some North African immigrants who were already living in France.





A video : Video FREIES ARABIEN !! - identitaires, betar, ldj, ww2, Indigènes - Dailymotion Share Your Videos

Some links : Ces Tunisiens SS volontaires dans la Wermarcht... - Marhba Tunisie : Forum et Chat Tunisien

Algerie Nouvelle: Mohamed el Maadi, héros authentique mais inconnu

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Theobald

Yes, the Freies Arabien. About 600 Tunisians and Algerians, many of them became important nationalist leaders later. Some of them were also brought to France proper to fight the Resistance, along with some North African immigrants who were already living in France.

Yes, but the strange thing is that the guy on the photo looks very black for an Arab :

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

It is often argued by the usual suspects that the Germanic divisions were elites in the Waffen SS. And indeed this was the theory. However, in the practice, the records of units like the Charlemagne, the Wallonien, or even non SS units like the Blue Division tell of a much different story.

Actually the Wallonian Division was considered Germanic by the III Reich (don't ask me why ), as it can be seen from its name SS-Volunteer Grenadier Division Wallonien , like the division of Scandinavian volunteers SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nordland, in comparation to non-Germanic divisions like the French Waffen Grenadier Division der SS Charlemagne, the Hungarian Waffen Grenadier Division der SS Hunyadi, or the Spanish remnants of the Blue Legion, the Spanische-Freiwilligen Kompanie der SS who were attached to the Wallonien and later to the Nordland during the deffense of Berlin.

For what I've read, the Waffen-SS divisions which better fought were the Latvian, the Estonian, and the French.

Apparently, non-Germanics were not good enough to be SS Divisions, and had to cope with being just Waffen Divisions der SS.

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Breha

I hate to be picky but apart from the dutch - indeonesian the others are all wearing regular army (wehrmach) uniforms or auxliary corps ones.

Sorry, waffen SS were reserved to popuation effectively deemed aryans: there were even resistance at acceping Degrellel's french belgians at the beginning, and the italians who joined the 29th SS were not allowed until the very end of the war to wear german badges, just red SS like badges.

As of their uniform, they wore regular italian uniform from old stocks and the italian helmet, generally looking very shabby and destitute: just after a valiant fight they were allowed into the real SS with the honor of carrying the SS silver badges, but it was already spring 1945.

In short, eiter they were considered half aryans ... or they were not trusted as italians (this damned obstinate germans, god knows why they couldn't trust us).

All in all, foreigners of non certain or non-existant aryan heritage were attached to the regular Army or to militarized support oranizations.

My region (together with Trieste/Trst, Ljubljana/Laibach, Istria and Fiume) was annexed directly to the Reich with the name of OZAK (Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland), german administration was full operant with Reich passports and they also organized the 24th Waffen-SS Gebrigsjaeger Division called Karstjaeger.
This division was formed by tyrolean officers and troops, friulian and slovenian volunteer troops.
The uniform was the official for Waffen-SS, the insigna was this one:

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by FlashVoyager

They recruited anyone capable of fighting in some areas. This does not meet the definition of multiculturalism, which is a culturally diverse society/community.

This foreign volunteers were just alies fighting for their national causes: for example the arabs and the indians were just trying to get rid of the british dominion.


So they were just donning german uniforms sice they were fighting along the germans, they were not to be incorporated in the german motherland.

Iranically a super racist state was helping brownie subjects to get rid of the white man burden, the british imperium.

[Der]

Originally Posted by Breha

So they were just donning german uniforms sice they were fighting along the germans, they were not to be incorporated in the german motherland.

Iranically a super racist state was helping brownie subjects to get rid of the white man burden, the british imperium.

I don't find the fact that a racist state was helping "brownie subjects" to get rid of their white man conquerors, the "Brits" ironic at all.

I recommend the reading of James Gregor's essay the evolution of the National Socialist position on race at various points: Unravelling the official 'positions' of Nazism on race at various points

Dr. Walter Gross, head of the Rassenpolitische Amt of the National Socialist Party, said: "We appreciate the fact that those of another race are different from us… Whether that other race is 'better' or 'worse' is not possible for us to judge. For this would demand that we transcend our own racial limitations for the duration of the verdict and take on a superhuman, even divine, attitude from which alone an 'impersonal' verdict could be formed on the value or lack of such of the many living forms of inexhaustible Nature." (105)

105. Gross, Der deutsche Rassengedanke und die Welt, 1939, pp. 24-28.

Less than a year later, in 1939, he defined the official position of mature National Socialist race theory:
"A serious situation arose through the fact that other people and States, because of German race laws… felt themselves attacked and defamed … For example the whole world of the Far East remained for a long time under the impression that the Germans… had designated them as non-Aryan, and as non-Aryans inferior rabble - (that the) Germans had designated (them) unworthy, second class humanity and that the Germans imagined themselves as the sole bearers of culture… What could we say to those who saw in German racism a fundamental defamation of men of other races? We could do nothing other than, with patience and conviction, repeat that German racism does not evaluate or deprecate other racial groups… It only recognizes, scientifically, that differences exist… We have often been disturbed by the indiscretion or even stupidity in our own land when, just after we had carefully made clear to some people or other that we respected and honoured… their racial qualities, some wild fool manufactured his own ideas about race and declared that these same people were racially inferior and stood somewhere below the cow or the ass, and that their characteristics were degrading or impure and lord knows what else! By such idiotic assertions were repelled and offended not only alien peoples in distant parts of the world but even our own neighbours in Europe, many times even friends of National Socialist Germany bound to us historically and in destiny." (106)

As we can see since 1939 the official stance of the III reich on race policy was "Racial Relativism"

With this said only one more thing needs to be made clear; every race should have the right to have their own land and to gobern it self.

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Der

I wouldn't call it Multiculturalism, they were volunteers fighting against globalization, by fighting with the III Reich they were defending their own identities.

An independent India could be established if the III Reich was to win the war, in particular the Japanese used pro-Indian independence propaganda against the British during the war.

There is a difference between mutual respect and cooperation between races and the total disrespect and uniformization that the current world order is trying to establish, with globalization as a weapon, trying to erase all type of cultures, races, and religions with the only aim of establishing a world without any sort of identity and thus “creating” humans who’s only aim in life is to try and win as much money as they possibly can.

I agree completly

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Salaün

It's the Freies Arabien :

You got it

[Agrippa]

Like I wrote elsewhere:
The Wehrmacht was an army of the German state, mostly out of German citizens, whereas the Waffen-SS was an army under a DIRECT control of the leadership an party. The original SS was almost exclusively German and with exceptions the members had to be predominantely Nordid/Nordoid.
The Waffen SS was a more practical force, but was originally made up out of Germans which were selected for racial and other criteria, later the same procedure for ethnic Germans, Germanics and related groups, but still a certain racial and general standard was present.
Later, when the situation became more desperate, the rules were untightened and finally under the banner of the SS-army, it was now a huge army considering out of many nations, were special independent units formed in which foreign troops which couldnt and shouldnt be integrated into the standard SS formations. Under those were all kinds of people, but this means not that a racial spirit and idea was lost, since they were army units usually fighting for their special national goals and had little to do with the Germanic-European SS units, with the exception of being outside of the order of the Wehrmacht and directly under the rule of the leadership. With Himmler f.e. having a special interest in Indians etc.
For the Muslim SS groups, well, they consisted mostly out of Southern Slavic Muslims, but a Palestinian was an important figure, namely the grand mufti Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, who influenced Arafat too:
Le Sabre et le Coran. Tariq Ramadan et les Frères musulmans à la conquête de l\'Europe - Le Coran : Message Divin ? ou... Mensonge Bédouin ? - La réponse - Et aussi : islam, musulman, Mahomet, allah, qoran, quoran, muhammad, mouhammad, islamique, isla
Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One has to distinguish between long term goals and ideals, as well as whats true for the own core areas, and pragmatic political decisions in cases in which there is simply an overlap of interests for a shorter or longer period of time with other groups. I mean I have nothing against blacks in general neither, as long as not too many of them come to the core areas of my group and do in one way or another harm to it. Thats just a rational and goal oriented attitude which should guide us, because hate without reason and mercy is no solution. That was and still is true, even though certain decisions of the Ns. leadership during the war were obviously determined by the war...
I mean, in no way did the Germans prefer the Japanese racially before the British, but as things were, the British fought against Germany and Ns., the Japanese were allies and there was little conflict of interests with them. Simple but true explanation. If your neighbor constantly wants to burn your house down and taking your wife it doesnt make him any friendlier if he is closer related to you by blood than the other neighbor, at least not while trying to destroy you and your home and if he doesnt consider this kinship in his plans at all...in such situations its about your survival and well being in the first place, and you would be stupid if not accepting any ally and means available to defend your family and yourself.

[Erasmus]

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

The patch on the arm needs more investigation, do you a have a bigger image? did you find it using google image search?

You can find more images here:

Axis History Factbook: Home

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

You can find more images here:

Axis History Factbook: Home

Mistery solved, give a look to post #31

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Salaün

Yes, but the strange thing is that the guy on the photo looks very black for an Arab :

There were some Black people living in North Africa back then, since the Maghreb and much of Sub-Saharan Africa were part of the same political/colonial entity. Also, there is an important community of Black Berbers (Touaregs) in Southern Algeria (the Sahara).
So that guy was either a Touareg or a Senegalese worker in Alger.

Originally Posted by Galaico

Actually the Wallonian Division was considered Germanic by the III Reich (don't ask me why ), as it can be seen from its name SS-Volunteer Grenadier Division Wallonien

Indeed, that's due to Degrelle's opinions, action and personnality.
He was the nec plus ultra of collaborationnism in Western occupied Europe and by 1943 he even supported the idea of a annexation of Wallonia into the Great Reich (along with other North-Eastern French areas, which he called "Burgondy"), defending the idea of Germanic heritage and identity there.

According to a Belgian historian, in 1943, Degrelle's supporters, the Rexists, start "wearing German uniforms, using German titles, speaking German to each other, they drive Wehrmacht's Mercedes, buy their food in only-German shops, they imitate German ways in everyday life, try to be always with Germans, invite them at home, they often marry German women. Germany is now their second fatherland. In truth this is the first and only fatherland for most of them."

Also, don't forget the very special relationship Degrelle had with Hitler and what Hitler said about him : "If I had a son, I wish he'd resemble you."

Originally Posted by Galaico

For what I've read, the Waffen-SS divisions which better fought were the Latvian, the Estonian, and the French.

Indeed, the French were the "last standing men", among the most heroic defenders of Berlin.

Division Charlemagne