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From an older thread, the topic was the different development of Western-Central and Eastern Europe:
The beginning of Democratic and constitutional structures: The big states, were not really democratic, but usually at least the aristocracy could decide certain things, there were many forms of councils. Not to forget the republics especially in Italy which survived for a certain time and their influence. Furthermore the Catholic church was not only determined by the state power but a had power on its own and there were, at least in theory, certain forms of elections. But the most important element of "democracy" or citizen rights was in the cities. The burgess had certain rights already in the medieval ages of Europe. Just think about the German laws, both for cities and farmers. When the German colonization went to Poland, they brought with them the newest technology and "way of living" to Poland and all regions in which they came. But not only Germans but French, Flemish, Dutch and Walloons as well. This laws gave the burgess and farmer certain rights and made new, well ordered structures. Not to forget rennaissance which did not really happen in the East, but that has nothing to do with "democracy" and law only... From the Frankish centre was a certain way of living spread to many parts of Europe, mainly were Western colonists were present. Not just by normal settlers, but by the church, to be precise, by monks, also. Just think about the clearing and settlements of the Zisterzienser and the clerical reforms of Cluny. In the end we see that certain family structures persisted beyond this cultural border. Best visible in names. In the early medieval age the Western farmer was nothing, he lost even his clan and bloodline structure, only the Christian or better Catholic moral was in charge. Most people in the West have names of their job, of their place or something like that wereas traditional European societies were patrillinear and had the names of a male ancestor. Thats true both Scots, Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans. Just think about -son, -ic, etc. This means the West had no longer the traditional family structure, could be used in different places, was not bound to a family and mainly loyal to the state or in the early times the church. Thats in my opinion even today a reason because traditional societies tend to be more corrupt, because they have more loyalty to everything else but the state. The Hajnal line is the obvious border for this early European division. I would say that the Turks and Mongols had a very strong impact, but even as important or more important was that they came much later in the spere of influence of this "Frankish centre" (Northern France, Benelux states and Northwestern Germany) which adopted first new social structures, farming, technology, burgess and farmer rights etc... There is in Europe, to this day, the "banana", the centre of Europe which is more "developed" than the rest. This part of Europe goes from the "Frankish centre" to Northern Italy. Even today most production and industry of the European Union is concentrated there. This region was under total control of the Empire, had a surviving Roman-antique tradition and under control of the Catholic church with a very high density of churches, monasteries and medieval cities. Certain structures in Europe are older than the 1000 years. But of course, thats no excuse or something fixed, but so far it never changed since this region was developed. Even before the 2nd world war, ever you go further away from this centre, you will see on all demographic and economic charts the difference to other regions. Not to forget that this region is now one of the most densely populated of the world. (Just think about Northern France, Benelux and North West Germany) Region under the influence of this Frankish centre like Great Britain or Scandinavia developed much faster than regions outside of this sphere of influence. Here are some good links with further information, first for the Hajnal line: http://dmo.econ.msu.ru/Data/mitterauer.html To the "banana": Quote:
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My theory would be like that: Better survival of antique traditions and different social organization from the beginning lead to another form of social organization, especially through the Catholic church. This social organization and the destruction of the extended family made a total rule of the church and aristocracy possible, especially with the religious and mental control. Whereas in the cities certain traditions of burgess, citizen rights and law survived. In the rural area the new agrarian technologies lead to growth of population. In the medieval ages there was for a short time a maximum of population and agrarian structures in Western, Central Europe. But then came the pest and a total breakdown, we could say this was a "check". In the later centuries technology goes further and social discipline as well, based on the disciplined individual, disciplined by state and church. The base for the industrial developments were the already medieval agrarian structures and the colonies. Because for an industrialization you need masses of relatively disciplined people and an effective supply with food. Just look at Japan which had not too much of an advantage if its about ressources etc, but they had a disciplined, state oriented society with masses of people and an effective agrarian system. To discipline the individual you must, with ideology, religion or pure force of the state, take the individual in a greater structure first and out of the family-clan structures. This was done in Western and Central Europe in the medieval age, in the East and South East in special it was mainly done in the 19th century and by the Communism. So today the original structures mainly survived, though with its own features, in Kosovo and Albania, parts of Bosnia and Romania "more or less". But of course the centuries of development, agrarian forms of live, the medieval social discipline, extended family destruction, later law reforms, rennaissance, absolute state, early industrial revolution etc. cannot be catched up that easy. And even the natural conditions are not that optimal, a dense population like in the Netherlands or North Western Germany would be just absurd in many parts of Eastern and South Eastern Europe. Both the East of Europe, the South East in particular didnt had for a very long time. Probably there was an influence of the Ottoman empire. So if the Holy Roman Empire would have had more influence on this region and not the Ottoman Empire for centuries, probably the South East would have looked different even in the 19th century. Anyway, the influence of Western, antique-Catholic structures and the centre of development of the "banana belt" is so eminent that it cant be ignored. Because even inside of Germany or inside of France and Italy, you can see the difference between this centre and the periphery of economic and social development. Its just explains the different stages and pace of development which cannot be explained by Communism alone. Its f.e. no wonder that the Baltic states and the Czechs f.e., which were integrated in the past are now more successful economically and are more adapted to what the "banana belt" wants now than other regions of Europe. "Mafia" f.e. is something which mainly works on the ground of clan structures or the remains of it. So you had Mafia f.e. in Southern Italy (not fully integrated) and now in many parts of Eastern and South Eastern Europe. Sure, the economic conditions are important for such criminal groups as well, but not only, because they are too often based on traditions of extended family, clan and blood. Just watch the movie "The Godfather". Sure, its just a movie, but a good one and you can learn from it. So its no matter in which direction you go away from this centre, South or East, the penetration with this structures is not as strong. And where is none, you see older structures, more problematic for development and based on traditional, oftentimes pre-Christian or non-Christian ways of living. In fact the West made many mistakes as well because after the elmination of the extended family, clan structures and the value of blood, with the exception of aristocracy of course, only the state was there to look for the biological and racial needs, at least mainly. Christianity is a big failure in that way as it doesnt recognize the importance of blood and kinship. It was good to deny the importance of clans before all, that was necessary to form a disciplined society, but they should have applied "rules of blood". Of course thats something we did, but the Christian extremists, the Anglo-Saxons and Calvinists, destroyed this approach. Now after the protecting state is destroyed, there is nothing left, no family, no clan, nothing... And everything about blood is denied. Thats the big failure of the West and the sin of Christianity. So if its about that we should learn from each other. Clan structures have no future if we want a developed and modern state, but on the other hand "rules of blood" must be applied which are rational and efficient. Therefore if Europe has any future at all, it will be neither the Western past nor the Eastern one but something new based on the best of the old traditions but without the bad. Link for the general topic: http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/TEXTS/EUROPE.pdf About the Hajnal line: Quote:
http://www.unece.org/ead/pau/flag/papers/macura.pdf Compare with: http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?p=68208
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Magna Europa est patria nostra STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM! |
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Since this topic is important for understanding many of todays problems of modernisation and Europe, I add some texts which should be of general interest and food for thoughts:
http://www.uni-muenster.de/Geschicht...tig/hajnal.pdf Especially the Neolocal character of a lot of European marriages inside of the European marriage pattern is crucial, since that wasnt always the case in other patterns in which f.e. more married sons (patrilocal) lived close together and formed the base of the extended family. And an excellent text: http://www.palgrave.com/pdfs/0333610784.pdf Some highlights: Quote:
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Magna Europa est patria nostra STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM! |
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