Battle of Nicopolis, 25 September 1396

[Lion of New York]

then how come during the Berlin Congress Bismarck is qouted as saying, "There is no Albanian Nationality" ? ? ?

Because the congress was trying to appease Greeks and Serbs expansionism. Albanians have existed in their nationality since the 1100's. They existed as the Arberor, then Shqiptar during the Ottoman conquest. They have had an identity in Italy as Arneresh and they have had Scanderbeg as their hero since they ran from Albania when the Ottomans took over...

Hell even Byzantine records mention Albanians. Surpringly(not), the term Illyrian is found next to them...

According to Britannica(subscribed)

"a small community of about 35,000 ethnic Greeks was included within Albania's borders. (However, Greece, which counted all Albanians of the Orthodox faith—20 percent of the population—as Greeks, claimed that the number of ethnic Greeks was considerably larger.)"

These similar numbers appear when looking for Serbs in Northern Albania... ofcourse magical numbers setup by Serbs and greeks were done in order justify expansionism.

Unlike Greeks or Serbs, Albs dont see themselves through a religious eye. They see themselves through a secular one. Which is why someone like Anastasios can have a voice when the country is 70% muslim... Because Albs respect the man, not the religion.

[Lion of New York]

Btw guys

Then there are other sources, documents which tells us that the Kastrioti had also another name, Masrek, Masrechius, Masrechij, all of which are Albanian names. In the area where Kastrati is, we find the toponym Mazrek which is also mentioned in the defters of 1571 in the form of Mazarak.

its rather humorous that people claim this guy was Greek and Serb when he never served any of their interests. he served Arbenon(Medieval Kingdom of Albania) and united Albanian princes such as the Muzakaj, Thopia, Balsha (mix of Zetan/Albanian), Dukagjin and Arianiti. With a Montenegrin prince who also joined called Crnojevic. Some people here should also look at the Chronicles of Ragusa. Very imformative...

Also, in Turkish historian letters, does anyone know what Scanderbeg was called? Well he was caleld Iskender Bey Arnauti, meaning Chief Alexander the Albanian.

[Awar]

Well, yeah, he was a feudal lord... why the hell would he serve 'national interests' when there was no idea of 'nation' at the time.

During the WW2, the nobility of Britain was/is German, but, they worked for the better interest of Englishmen, of course.

[Lion of New York]

Well, yeah, he was a feudal lord... why the hell would he serve 'national interests' when there was no idea of 'nation' at the time.

Well that was about the closest Albania would get to a united state. Nearly all princes of Albania had united against the Turks. but yea I worded that wrong. Basically, he served the interests of the Arberor(Medieval Albanians), who inhabited the territories he was defending.

During the WW2, the nobility of Britain was/is German, but, they worked for the better interest of Englishmen, of course.

There is no document ever recorded inwhich Scanderbeg stated himself as a Serb. The link i provided with his letter from the Prince of Tarranto are scans from a book in Rome. In it, there are multiple letters from Scanderbeg to other princes, lords etc., in none does he state he was a Serb or Greek. Rather Epirotian is used. However, the Despot of Epirus, which had been destroyed around that time thanks to Serbs(Probulovich) then Albs(Thopia, Muzakaj)was a mutliethnic land inwhich even Albs claimed they were Epirotians. The Despotate actually strectched to present day Scutari. The Alb lords of the territories never called themselves as people serving Arbanon(similar to "Byzantines"/Romans issue), they believed they were serving the Despotate and so in that idea, they called themselves Epirotians. Thats why also the Byzantine eagle was adopted in the creation of the first Arber state.

Today however Epirus and Albania are two different entities. Albania is no longer part of Epirus, today it is it's own nation. Epirus, being part of Greece, is defined as part of Greece. So anything involving "Epirus" in from the Middle Ages, is automatically tied with Greek. When in reality it's far more complex.

My guess, it is also why the Alb people were not seen as some completely different people. For instance, when Serbs first pierced into present day Greece, they began settling there. The Byzantine empire was no longer like the Roman, where anyone can be Romanized then called Roman, it was an institution which worked to protect the ethnicity of Greeks. hence the emperor made the statement "All of greece has been slavinized", often actually this quote is used against Greeks to try and make people believe that todays Greeks are slavs but... after the statement was made, the Emperor proceeded to enslave the Serbs and shipped them off to Anatolia. Creating a barrier for Greece. Barbarians versus Barbarians was the mentality the late Roman empire adopted and then went off to the Byzantine Empire. Those who know history will know that historically it worked against the Byzantines as the slavs of anatolia then allied with the Arabs against Constantinople.

this distinction in never trully made with Albanians. During the late era of the Byzantine Empire, the pelopenesus was facing heavy depopulation, no thanks to Turkish, Venetian, Serb, Albanian, raids. This caused the Despotate to begin a big decline, to repopulate areas of that land, the emperor began takin in Arber into those lands(described in Byzantine chronicles above). There was no actual population replacement(meaning Greeks still remained the big guys) but we do find a significant change in the way the land was worked. Greeks were farmers primarily was Albs were sheperds. Well in this time we find a large decline in farming in some territories, and a general increase of the latter.

(PS: In the Byzantine Records part there was supposed to be two quotes but by mistake I only put one twice http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf2/W06.PDF , here is the other one)

[Archangelos]

umm where did anyone claim his father to be serbian??

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Archangelos

umm where did anyone claim his father to be serbian??

Wasn't it you(or was that Alkman) who claimed he is "half greek-half serb"?

[Awar]

His mother was Serbian, father was Greek.

[Archangelos]

Awar, where in gods name did he come up with his father being Serbian? That was never spoken about. What was said is his Father was Greek and his mother was Serbian.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Awar

His mother was Serbian, father was Greek.

And what are your sources? As far as I know his mother was most probably Bulgarian or Macedonian Slav not a Serb. As for his father he was obiously Epirotan or in other words Albanian.

Btw. it's interesting to know that one of the ancient twelve Croatian noble families which made a deal with Arpady family of Hungary in 1102(Pacta Conventa) were Kastriotich(english spelling).

[Archangelos]

Zrinski

This was all spoken about earlier in the thread, why not go back and check.

his father he was obiously Epirotan or in other words Albanian.

How would that make him Albanian, when the people of Epirus are of Hellenic Descendent?

[Lion of New York]

[8. Defamation and insults directed against stirpes.net, Stirpes, their Staff, or their respective decisions, are not permitted. For that alone you should be banned, but instead I'll put you under moderation. Mynydd]

Anyway, no arch, nobody is denying the ancient hellenic ness of the Epirotians. However we do find that in the Middle Ages, many Alb princes(Muzakaj, Thopia) had taken control of the former Despotate of Epirus, which extended all the way to Scutar. The identity of the Albanians had grown within the Despotate and thus believed they were Epirotians. The flag of the state of Arberon(early 12th century) was the Byzantine eagle. This was adopted as the symbol of the Despotate of Epirus after the defeat of the Normans(or Bulgarians, not sure) when the Byzantine emperor left the military emblem to the Despotate. So when Albanians began taking control of the Despotate after it's death they believed they were just epirotians controlling the Despotate, working for it. This is why in that era, little distinction is made between Albania and Epirus, in many historical documents(Including Gibbons) we even find a slash between both names (Epirus/Albania). This was because Albanians were ruling the former Despotate and had overrun it after the Serbs. This is why we also find many old Alb families claim ancestry of ancient hellenistic tribes of Epirus. Muzakaj took his last name from the Molossi tribe as seen in his memoirs.
It was about taking a legacy, since hellenism was about the biggest legacy of the Balkans, many people tried to find their ancestry back to them. Like I said, similar to how Turks claimed they descended from the Trojans, do you think they were Trojans? Or Caesars family who traced their origisn to Aenas, this goes on and on from antiquity to Medieval and even Renaissance.

Oh Btw, to those who keep thinking that there was no Alb people and that we were made up, I suggest you see this 15th century map
http://historymedren.about.com/libra...peurse1401.htm

There are weak theories that his father was a Serb nobleman. They are about as weak as the ones that state he is Greek.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Archangelos

How would that make him Albanian, when the people of Epirus are of Hellenic Descendent?

They weren't of "hellenic descent"...whatever that is. Old Greek was just a language and not just a language but a language with which different people communicted with each other....similar to English today.

@Lion of New York - what do you think, could it be posibble that Kastriotic family may be actually a branch of Kastrioti Epirotan/Albanian medieval nobles?
I find it really strange no one else noticed the same name before.

[Archangelos]

From earlier posts

his letter to the Prince of Taranto Jovanni Antonio, Kastriotis says: " Our ancestors were Epirotians, from which Pyrros the King was born. Who won the Romans and occupied Taranto and other cities of Italy. You do not have fighters to resist in the Epirotian courage" ("Georgios Kastriotis", K.Paganel, p.156, 1860).

And Posted by Alkman

Grandfather of Georgios Kastriotis was Konstantinos Kastriotis,ruler of Imathia kai Kastoria in South Macedonia.This is where his family really originated.One of his sons,Ioannis,moved to Kruja (middle Albania)after being given the title of "Authentis" (Byzantine hegemon) of the region.He married Serbian princess Voisava from Polog and one of their sons was Georgios

[Lion of New York]

[Rule #21. Only one account per user is permitted, and only one user per account is permitted.

Lion of New York, only 1 account is allowed per user:

http://forum.stirpes.net/rules.php?show=generic


Mynydd]

[Archangelos]

Banned yet again?

[Menydh]

As per rules:

8. Defamation and insults directed against stirpes.net, Stirpes, their Staff, or their respective decisions, are not permitted.

21. Only one account per user is permitted, and only one user per account is permitted.

[Lion of New York]

[This is the second time that you re-register under a different account. You were moderated, then banned, and now ultra-banned. What part of it do you not understand?

Since you don't respect our space and our rules, do not expect respect in return.

Mynydd.]

[Menydh]

@ Lion of New York

You have registered 3 new names just today. I'm running out of patience with you.

One more attempt and I will block you and the entire Albanian IP range in the firewall.

[damjan]

i like to thank croats for defending history from facist nationalist that dream on tearing albs historical past apart.
the crussade is intersting especially the one in 1440s, because kastrioti tried to take part in it(and perhaps turn the tide) but was stalled by you guessed, serbian brankovic. he arrived at the battle field too late, so he pillaged his way back to albania.

Exactly. He was Greek. Only his mother was Serbian.

pure rubbish. but it is funny how serbs and greeks are comprimising. the same way they dream to slice albania. half serb half greek. LOL
changing history to fit their agendas.


i dare any serious person to just google the nonesense written,georgos son of ioanis katriotities. amazingly you will get nothing!!!


george mother seems to have been slavic, using the name evidence(the only discription of her we have) and the fact that she came from eastern albania(or wester fyrom), a slavic-alb transition zone even today.
his fathers family appears in northern albania, and kruja itself is in northern albania(also among the 1st place that byzantines describe as alb territory). no connection to epirus in any kind.

but when it comes to george kastrioti one only has to read ottoman sources and their battles with him. his army is always albanian, his alliance includes albs(only one montengrin), he defends a land called albania. he even aids king of napels. it is weird how italians didnt notice that he was non-albanian. not to mention some of his soldiers settled in italy and today their decendents speak albanian. theres nothing mysterious about him period.

Well, yeah, he was a feudal lord... why the hell would he serve 'national interests' when there was no idea of 'nation' at the time.

like your king stefan is to serbs, he is important in alb identity. he was the 1st alb to unite different alb lords together in a