Do Mediterranids exist in pure form in Europe?

[Graeme]

I am posing this question as in my travels around Europe what I have seen is many types of Mediterraneans who mostly do not fit into any Mediterranid sub racial type. Sure there are dark haired and dark eyed people with olive white skins but long headed and gracile? Everyone can see that West Mediterranean people look different from East Mediterraneans with Italy straddling the middle. What are your views on the racial compositions of Mediterranean peoples? I am not asking for Moors or Turks or the lost tribe of Dan but an appraisal of the common sub racial types and phenotypes found in the Mediterranean zone of Europe.

[son of Roderic]

I'm sorry I don't have anything to help you with your question but I'm curious about the long and gracile head or skull. In my family I have two brothers Vincent and Dominic and one of them Vincent has a wide large skull sort of flat on top but Dominics' is like mine..... tall, slender with more of a point on top. We have the same parents, I guess it's just genes. Vincent is much larger framed and hairy as where Dominic and I are slender and not too hairy. I am olive toned but they are very fair skinned with very light brown hair. Just sounds similar to what your talking about and thought I'd offer.

[Menydh]

Graeme, it appears that what is commonly thought of as Western Mediterranean seems to actually be R1b, i.e. pre-Neolithic or Old European types. That's the most common type in the Iberian Peninsula and Southern and Western France.

[Graeme]

R1b, I and R1a are all pre Neolithic Y chromosome haplogroups. And the three were all limited to the southern parts of Europe by the extent of glaciation in so called refuges. I have always considered the typical pre Neolithic inhabitants of Europe to be basically dark haired and eyed just with UP features. R1b moved east as well as north in Europe. Today Europeans are fairly mixed with more recent Neolithic haplogroups found in most European countries. The reason I posed the question about pure Mediterranids in Europe is that I have not seen any. It just seems that it is enough to have dark hair, dark eyes and a certain complexion to be labelled Mediterranean. Basically pigmentation is the qualifier not actual racial origin.

[Vitor]

Exactly...
most of the time people only see skin pigment.

Distinct places as greece and Iberia would then be put together, just Like those "ancient" anthropologist did...

[Greco-Roman]

The most purely Mediterranean regions are Iberia and Northern Arabia. Of course, those two populations are ancestrally unrelated and adapted to different climates, but they've evolved and retained similar metric proportions. Everywhere else, Mediterraneans are significantly admixed with other racial elements: Alpines, Dinarics and Nordics in Europe; and Armenoids, Irano-Afghans and Negroids in the Middle East and North Africa.

[Dan_Grr]

Well hello there im portuguese this is my first post though ive spent some time reading this marvellous threads which indicates we have some very intelligent people around. Well i would like to state my mind:

Im dark haired, brown eyes and what you can consider a "regular" mediterranean. But has you said, thats not enough: you mention something about we being from the neolithic.

Also somebody mentioned long heads? I have a long and thin head, not too much though. Im 187 cm (6'1?), im 84 kg, im not fat nor thin, im robust but that comes from practicing sports i think not genetic related. Have the dark eyes and brown eyes as many of my friends too. But i noticed many of them have "almost" dark hair now in their adulthood, but when they were younger their hair was slightly blond or brown which indicates lots of interracial relations. Not mel, my hair is thick black.

Also, a interesting note: my mother says that my great-grandmother slightly descended from the moors.

Heres a pic of mine anyone care to state their opinion of what i am please?

[Vitor]

Originally Posted by Dan_Grr

I forgot to add the pics well here they are (im a bit tanned)

The darker girl is obviously mullata!
right?

you 2 guys there seem to arrive from northern africa, they were usually taller than the portuguese!
(it's the hair of your friend and your's pigmentation)

That kind of hair (of you friend), is very rare here Where I live (near lisbon)
it looks afro-hair!


Where are you from?
southern Portugal?

great-grandmother slightly descended from the moors

How the hell you know that?

It must be something recent...I believe all portuguese have moors blood, maybe even 5% (or even more) of all the portuguese genes.
The thing is how you know that?
Maybe it's not moors blood...try to figure it out!

btw childreen with blond hair is just normal with normal europeans, the pigment is still being produced until we reach adulthood, it has nothing to do with mixing.

[Vitor]

from the neolithic?
Well that is the south-easterns europeans!

there are not that much neolithic haplogroups in Portugal...maybe in the south there is more of it!

[Vojvoda]

Originally Posted by Vitor

you 2 guys there seem to arrive from northern africa, they were usually taller than the portuguese!

Hm, from my dealings with Portuguese,the northerners are usually short and fair while southerners are taller.Would that be correct or am I stereotyping?

[Vitor]

yes...I think it's true!

[Dan_Grr]

Well i find my friend a peculiar case. Although shorter than me he is also tall and has that kind of hair you say, like almost afro hair yeah. Believe it or not hes from Seixal! (ele tá aí perto de ti ele diz que o cabelo dele cresce tipo esfregona para cima)

Its actually funny because that mullata girl you refering is normal portuguese, and their parents arent like that. Another friend of mine looks like that too, a mix of mullato and/or gypsy, but his parents are white. Strange... (a mulher deve ter enganado o marido lol)

The blond hair we see in younger childs and then gets brown: isnt that related to French invasions, when they came to Portugal and raped lots of women?

Also theres a girl in one of the photos who is kinda chubby and she looks like shes Celt. Shes has almost red hair in her adulthood(she was fully red haired when she was younger) and she has sprinkles (é assim que se diz sardas?) in her face

[Vitor]

she really looks mullata!

maybe her "father" was cheated...yeah!

Your friend have sub-saharan genes, that is also obvious!

It could be old genes, very old, because I know that kind of hair although extremely rare in europe, sometimes pops-up, even in nordic countries.

Lighter hair pigmentation in youth, has nothing to do with french rapings, nop!
Like I said, it takes time to produce melanine, some people got massive melanine earlier produced some don't, most europeans don't.

Even the french/germans/etc.. have lighter hair in youth.

That celtic girl, looks portuguese, celtic?
hum...maybe not!
She looks UP, with no "celtic" mixing, pure indo-europeans (like some celts), might had more pigmentation than local Iberians!

[Dan_Grr]

Im talking with my mother now and she says confidently that my great grandmother really descended from the moors. Something about "old/black" rituals she inherited. My grandmothers hair is thick black, my mothers hair is thick black and my hair is also thick thick.

She looks UP, with no "celtic" mixing, pure indo-europeans (like some celts), might had more pigmentation than local Iberians!

By the way whats "UP"?

[Vitor]

black rituals?
Moors had no black rituals (islam forbides that kind of stuff since VII century AD).

UP means under paleolithic, something very ancient, the first europeans...(still in majority in europe)

[Menydh]

Dan Grr, if your great-grandmother talked about "old/black" rituals that is not Moorish but Negroid. Either way non Portuguese. In which case, harsh as this may sound to some, I must kindly ask you to respect the integrity of Portugal and stay away from girls like those two in that picture.

Also, I am Spanish and I have my sister happily married with a Portuguese and living in Portugal, with two beautiful Iberian children. So you can imagine that I do know Portugal quite a bit.. and let me tell you that the girl in the left corner of the picture is not a Portuguese but mixed with Negroid (not first generation Mulatto but Mulatta nonetheless).

I am sure that you will be able to find another space on the Internet that will suit you well, but not this one.

So I must wave you Good Bye and I wish you the Best Luck in your quest.

By the way, here you have a picture of my Portuguese nephew. Hopefully he will get some tan in the future when he grows.

[Dan_Grr]

Well i believe you when you say she must be a second mulatha generation.
Anyway theres 3 girls in the pics. One of them happens to be my girlfriend, which is the taller one with the cute smile.

I read in a magazine that from 30 years from now (or something like that) there will be so much interracial between Humankind that there will hardly be any 100% blonde, or 100% whatever, mainly because of that second generation mulatha or something like your talking about.

Are we losing our identities, not just as Mediterranids, but in the whole world too?

[Vitor]

Are we losing our identities, not just as Mediterranids, but in the whole world too?

Yes, we are!
Our camara muncipal is even promoting ethnic days....promoting the "others",
THE WORST STUFF IS....
THEY ARE NOT PROMOTING OUR HERITAGE!

[Faísca]

Originally Posted by Dan_Grr

Anyway theres 3 girls in the pics. One of them happens to be my girlfriend, which is the taller one with the cute smile.

I read in a magazine that from 30 years from now (or something like that) there will be so much interracial between Humankind that there will hardly be any 100% blonde, or 100% whatever, mainly because of that second generation mulatha or something like your talking about.

Actually that's exactly what we are trying to avoid here.
I take it as you don't care much, if a single bit, about this matter then, am I correct?

Are we losing our identities, not just as Mediterranids, but in the whole world too?

Indeed we are, there's an ongoing thing called globalization, and it is not helping to preserve our cultures that much, as far as I've noticed.

[Dan_Grr]

This may sound stupid as i dont have knowledge as you must have nor have i college degree on genetic subjects or anything

Sometimes i think of an ideal organization in the world, like to preserve ones ethnicity, we should procriate among our own kind. So: blonds with blonds mediterranean with mediterranean and so on and so on, just to preserve of whats left, or even just to delay that horrible prophecy i mentioned in my last post

As I said, this may have sound stupid but i hope you get the idea

BTW, ive noticed the majority here in this topic is spanish and portuguese do we have to speak the barbaric english? Why not our own language we can understand each other

EDIT: But then again, everyone wanting to read what we werere saying couldnt, so its better to continue speaking the english languauge