Racial types of Brazil

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Strider

And what about eye and color blondism in Argentina? I have seen quite many Argentinians who could easily pass for Germans or Slavs.

Sure, because many are some anyway

[Señor Malo]

I lived in Argenitna till my 19 years old
Acc. to "official" statistics
85% of argentines are white/caucasoid
14,5 % are mixed indian/europoid
0,5% pure indians (most of them confined to reserves in the Nord and in Patagonia)

Statistics include in that 85% "white" descendents from lebanesse and syrian inmigranst but those that I saw & who boasted such ancestry looked white rather than what I would call "modern arabs" (by this I mean those like O. B Laden or those who can be seen today in France, for instance.)
They include in that 85% those of jewish origin (mainly from Ukraine and Poland, yet we have lot of "pure" ukrania and poland ancestry)
In central province of Cordoba you may found villages whose most of the popultation traces their origins to germany and who still celebrate the "oktoberfest".
in Southern province of Chubut (specially on the atlantic shore and on the Chubut river valley) you'll find lot of villages with welsh names ; Trellew, Rawson, puerto Madryn, Gaiman, Dolavon, etc for they were founded by welsh colonist since 1865.
Italians names are as frequent as Spanish ones, that's true.

There's a mistery in the argentine popultaion history, and it is the disappearence of the afro-argentine; Today, there's no visible trace of nigrescense in Argentina population yet, in the XIXth century 30% of the people of Buenos Aires was black ... we don't hear anymore about them by the 1890's or early 1900's...

A recent genetical study seems to have found traces of black DNA on 2,6% of the population of Buenos Aires but yet is not sure that they used the correct DNA marker....And as attachment, I enclose you pic of some female argentine celebrities so that you can appreciate the different european influences in the racial make-up

[Strengthandhonour]

Searcheroftruth, I have a question.
A while back, one of my father's friends, he is Argentinian and he is a history profesor, he told us a little story about the Blacks in Argentina. He said during "La guerra del Chaco" against Uruguay,Paraguay,Brazil,etc. A lot of the blacks where taken and sent to the frontline with barely any weapons just to let the enemy troops use up their artillery and heavy weapons on them. What do you think of this? I mean I doubt an entire population can be wipped out so easily but its something to think about.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

Searcheroftruth, I have a question.
A while back, one of my father's friends, he is Argentinian and he is a history profesor, he told us a little story about the Blacks in Argentina. He said during "La guerra del Chaco" against Uruguay,Paraguay,Brazil,etc. A lot of the blacks where taken and sent to the frontline with barely any weapons just to let the enemy troops use up their artillery and heavy weapons on them. What do you think of this? I mean I doubt an entire population can be wipped out so easily but its something to think about.

Hi, strenght and honour,
yes, is quite possible that during the "Triple alliance war" from 1865 to 1870(as we also call that war to make the difference with the Chaco war that had Bolivia and Paraguay in the late 1920's-early 1930's), the blacks has been used as "carne de cañón" (litterally, flesh/food for the cannons).
That surelly reduced their population but didn't end with them enterelly, as we found them again in the late 1870's and early 1880's in the so-called "campaigns of the desert" or "indian wars". They were employed in the forts that were displayed all along the frontier that separated the argentine territory from the indian territory. In those times the fronier line was located at scarcelly 150 or 200 kms from Buenos Aires. It is said that when the indians took a white or half blood prisonner, he could expect to be treated in an "acceptable way", but when they caught a black prisonner, the indians themselves deserved him the worse treatments and tortures ... It appears that wars had much contributed to deplete black popultaion but I can hardly believe that they coul finish them ...of course, blacks used to be the most deprived minority and when epidemias of cholera and other strock the country, they had lot of casualties ...and yet, I'm not sure that was enough... in my opinion, there's something else and the mistery remains...

[ÅnÐReS]

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

There's a mistery in the argentine popultaion history, and it is the disappearence of the afro-argentine; Today, there's no visible trace of nigrescense in Argentina population yet, in the XIXth century 30% of the people of Buenos Aires was black ... we don't hear anymore about them by the 1890's or early 1900's...

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

A recent genetical study seems to have found traces of black DNA on 2,6% of the population of Buenos Aires but yet is not sure that they used the correct DNA marker....

Interesting. Do you have a source for it?

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

It appears that wars had much contributed to deplete black popultaion but I can hardly believe that they coul finish them ...of course, blacks used to be the most deprived minority and when epidemias of cholera and other strock the country, they had lot of casualties ...and yet, I'm not sure that was enough... in my opinion, there's something else and the mistery remains...

I don't remember very well where i've read it, but it seems that around the 1850's many blacks were taken to Brazil. I don't know how much truth is around that though...

[Strengthandhonour]

As it was mentioned, it seems like it would remain a mistery for now. I read once that some claim that they where just overwhelmed with white blood and a lot of Argentinians today have black blood, but I dont buy that one. I think they just got the worst of it and ended up as bait or left the country. That would seem the most reasonable reasoon.

[SdKfzPuma]

Curitiba, Brazil, its in Parana province, many ukes there!

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by ÅnÐReS

Interesting. Do you have a source for it?



I don't remember very well where i've read it, but it seems that around the 1850's many blacks were taken to Brazil. I don't know how much truth is around that though...

Hello ÅnÐReS.


My sources about the DNA test was on a blog of Anhtropology. I'll get back to that blog as soos as I can an search in the archives. It was just the sumary of an article in a suppossed "specialized magazin" yet I don't trust much the issue of the study as, IMO it smells like a genetical study published in "Nature Magazine" arging that Ethiopeans, Greeks and Japanese were genetically related (an article luch critisized by true genetic experts little after...)
For the rest, I base my opinion on "Martin Fierro" which is in a wey the most recent reference I know on blacks in Argentina.About the treatment indians desserved to black captives and their presence in the army during what I called "the indian wars", is a book called "la guerre dans la Pampa" (the war in the Pampa) written by a french ingeneer who had been working for hte argentine government allong the frontier line in the late 1870's and early 1880's and who had witnessed the "indian invasion to the province of BA" in the late 1875 and Roca's "conquest of the dessert " in 1879 (this engineer has accompained the expedition) I'll check the author's name and revert.

Best regards, ÅnÐReS

[Herac]

Well...

Brazil is a huge country, with 180 million of inhabitants. The census tell us that "whites" citzens constitute 50% of population - but in fact, there are many mestizos who consider themselves "white" anyway, so, in my personal opinion, brazilian whites constitute around 10-15% of the population, but it stills a great number (circa 20 million people, almost all in the south).

The majority of white brazilians is of italian descent (I preffer to say "venetic"), followed by portuguese and germans, and then spanish, polish, ucranians, and slavs in general.

I don't know exactly what kind of sub-race is majority amongst white brazilians. Guesstimating, I can rank this way: 1° - Dinarid; 2° - Mediterranid; 3° - Nordid and Alpinid.

I don't need to prove to no one that white brazilians exist. Indeed, there are pop icons like Gisele Bündschen and Anna Hickmann that are from cities not far from here, or soccer players such as Fabio Rockenbach (german), Taffarel (italian), Rafael Sóbis (ucranian) and Falcão (italian), that are white southern brazilians and have a lil' bit of fame around.

But don't mistake yourselves... there are three states with white majority in Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Paraná - the 3 states of south) in which there are towns constituted nearly 100% by true whites, and a considerable white population in São Paulo. The other states white population is a true minority, and as you go further north, more "shakers" and their darkened offspring you will find.

[Agrippa]

Dont you think 10-15 percent is really too low? 50 percent is too high for harder standards most likely, but 10-15 percent seems to be very low, too low me thinks, but probably others have more detailed infos...

[Herac]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Dont you think 10-15 percent is really too low? 50 percent is too high for harder standards most likely, but 10-15 percent seems to be very low, too low me thinks, but probably others have more detailed infos...

Here, the census, in %:

Year:....White......Black.....Yellow.....Mixed*....Amerindian**
1940:---63,47----14,64----0,59-----21,21-------0
1950:---61,68----10,96----0,63-----26,54-------0
1960:---61,03----8,71-----0,69-----29,50-------0
1980:---54,24----5,92-----0,56-----38,85-------0
1991:---51,56----5,00-----0,43-----42,45------0,20
2000:---53,74----6,21-----0,45-----38,47------0,43

*now included as black or coloured.
**before 1991 Indians were counted as mixed.

The brazilian census is just non-sense. Everyone can be included as white. If a black person like Pelé declare himself white, the census will count him as white.

There are many contradictions in this census. Blacks never decreased as population, but they started to declare themselves as mixed when the social "apartheid" ended and they lost their identity - so they became outnumbered. And mixed declared themselves white because of the social status that white gives to them - in fact, race in Brazil is a social matter, it's not logical, but fictional. That's why we have such hipotetical white population.

Well, 20 million of whites is a huge number, and you will think me as an optimistic guy with you walk on the streets of any brazilian big city, specially in the north - in which there are cities that whites exists only in the census.

Conscious euro-brazilians will agree with me in the 15% porcentage. Some will say that we are less than that. Believe me, Brazil is an aberration - I understand why argentinians hate this country so much.

[Euclides]

Originally Posted by Count Ivor

Oki. Lets wait till they show up.

What's the percent of Ukranian immigrants in Brazil by the way?

Brazil received more than 50 000 Ukranians, mostly in the south, near Curitiba. Today they are 300 000 , more than 90% are in Paraná State.In a city called Prudentópolis about 75% of population are Ukranian in origin.

[Euclides]

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

I lived in Argenitna till my 19 years old
Acc. to "official" statistics
85% of argentines are white/caucasoid
14,5 % are mixed indian/europoid
0,5% pure indians (most of them confined to reserves in the Nord and in Patagonia)

Statistics include in that 85% "white" descendents from lebanesse and syrian inmigranst but those that I saw & who boasted such ancestry looked white rather than what I would call "modern arabs" (by this I mean those like O. B Laden or those who can be seen today in France, for instance.)
They include in that 85% those of jewish origin (mainly from Ukraine and Poland, yet we have lot of "pure" ukrania and poland ancestry)
In central province of Cordoba you may found villages whose most of the popultation traces their origins to germany and who still celebrate the "oktoberfest".
in Southern province of Chubut (specially on the atlantic shore and on the Chubut river valley) you'll find lot of villages with welsh names ; Trellew, Rawson, puerto Madryn, Gaiman, Dolavon, etc for they were founded by welsh colonist since 1865.
Italians names are as frequent as Spanish ones, that's true.

There's a mistery in the argentine popultaion history, and it is the disappearence of the afro-argentine; Today, there's no visible trace of nigrescense in Argentina population yet, in the XIXth century 30% of the people of Buenos Aires was black ... we don't hear anymore about them by the 1890's or early 1900's...

A recent genetical study seems to have found traces of black DNA on 2,6% of the population of Buenos Aires but yet is not sure that they used the correct DNA marker....And as attachment, I enclose you pic of some female argentine celebrities so that you can appreciate the different european influences in the racial make-up

Hum Biol. 2004 Aug;76(4):543-57.
Characterization of admixture in an urban sample from Buenos Aires, Argentina, using uniparentally and biparentally inherited genetic markers.

Martinez Marignac VL, Bertoni B, Parra EJ, Bianchi NO.

Multidisciplinary Institute of Cell Biology, Department of Population Molecular Genetics, La Plata, CP 1900, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

In this study we analyzed a sample of the urban population of La Plata, Argentina, using 17 mtDNA haplogroups, the DYS 199 Y-chromosome polymorphism, and 5 autosomal population-associated alleles (PAAs). The contribution of native American maternal lineages to the population of La Plata was estimated as 45.6%, whereas the paternal contribution was much lower (10.6%), clearly indicating directional mating. Regarding autosomal evidence of admixture, the relative European, native American, and West African genetic contributions to the gene pool of La Plata were estimated to be 67.55% (+/-2.7), 25.9% (+/-4.3), and 6.5% (+/-6.4), respectively. When admixture was calculated at the individual level, we found a low correlation between the ancestral contribution estimated with uniparental lineages and autosomal markers. Most of the individuals from La Plata with a native American mtDNA haplogroup or the DYS199*T native American allele show a genetic contribution at the autosomal level that can be traced primarily to Europe. The results of this study emphasize the need to use both uniparentally and biparentally inherited genetic markers to understand the history of admixed populations.

[Euclides]

Originally Posted by Herac

Conscious euro-brazilians will agree with me in the 15% porcentage. Some will say that we are less than that. Believe me, Brazil is an aberration - I understand why argentinians hate this country so much.

Argentina is not a real white country.Argentinians are not properly white. Like in Brazil, many mestizos with ''white'' skin consider themselves as being ''white ''.

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Euclides

Argentina is not a real white country.Argentinians are not properly white. Like in Brazil, many mestizos with ''white'' skin consider themselves as being ''white ''.

Thats true. F.e. from 10 Gauchos I saw in a documentary 3 showed Indianid features, one strong one, the other 2 just some admixture. But still Argentina is a racially Europid country. I think most Indianid admixture might be in the lowest classes. F.e. the patron of the farm was a aristocratic European type (refined Leptosomic Atlantomediterranid) - as were all his relatives which were visible.