The Mediterranean Race In Western Europe: Discovering The Mysterious

[Cromlech]

We can find the mediterranean race along most of the coast of Mediterranean sea, in diferent varieties. This makes us think on an expansion along the coast of it, in this case, expanding from the Near East to the west in the neolitic times. But genetic studies shaws that most of the genes of actual western mediterranean people (Iberia) are from Uper Paleolhitic ancestry, at the same time that gracile med is the predominant race in this land. HOW WE CAN EXPLAIN THIS? The old theory of the expansion of a mediterranean mass of people in a east-west direction is descated by the genetic studies. I think there are 2 possible theories that can explain this problem:

1- In the Neolitic, a minority group of mediterraneans of med gracile race arrived in western mediterranean lands: Iberia, Italy and other lands. They where a minority but their particular features where favourable in particular ambients (Iberia and south of Italy), so the genes of this favourables features fastly expanded beetween the local UP inhabitants, at the same time that they conserved the rest of their UP genes, that were the mayority. For this reason, spanish conserved most of UP genes at the same time that they have gracile med features. Its a thing of gene cuality, not cuantity. This is well explained in an Agripa´s article.

2- The diferent forms of the med race apeared in each territory in an independent form, each one evolving from local UP races. The mediterrean race as a race with an unique origin dont exist, mediterranean groups are only similar beacuse of ambiental adaptation.

I used to believed that the firt explanation is the true. But recently, I have read some articles of diferent people speaking about the meditterranean groups as local evolutions similar among them beacuse adaptation to similar ambients. This is hardly to believe to me, beacuse if this is true, the gracile mediterraneans of Spain and south Italy have completely diferent origins, but they are similars or equal in a pure form. And I think that a migration is unprobably.

Somebody can finally answer to this western meditteranean misterious? The true is the first theory, the second, or maybe a mixture of the two?
I encourage everybody that know something about this theme to answer this post, and to solve this dude.
Thanks.

[Menydh]

The Mediterranean element in Southern Italy is largely East Mediterranid, not West. The sources being different, adaptation to a similar environment has converged into a similar direction.

An interesting example I was discussing with someone else is that of Sardinians. Being an island it would be logical to assume that a coastal gracile element would have evolved in it. However, historically Sardinians have had a marked tendency to live in the central hinterlands of the island rather than by the coast. And so you have the so-called Paleo-Sardinians. Something similar could be argued about the Irish. In Iberia, this is also the case of the central high plateaus, where the Berid Alpinoid forms are more abundant.

[Amorsite]

at the same time that gracile med is the predominant race in this land

Mediterraneans are not predominant anywhere in Europe. And a transition from UP types to Meds is nonsense which doesnt even deserve to be discussed. It doesnt matter when they arrived or not. At worst Coon may have been wrong about dates, not more.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

Mediterraneans are not predominant anywhere in Europe. And a transition from UP types to Meds is nonsense which doesnt even deserve to be discussed.

Define UP here.

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Menydh

Define UP here.

Similar to Cromagnon and Afalou, also called Cromagnons in classifications.

[Menydh]

But UP is a long period lasting from 50,000 to 11,000 BC. It cannot be simplified to just Cromagnon. Also, Mediterranean is a term that encompasses different types evolved in different areas with a same or similar environment in terms of climate, resources, geology, etc.

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Menydh

But UP is a long period lasting from 50,000 to 11,000 BC. It cannot be simplified to just Cromagnon. Also, Mediterranean is a term that encompasses different types evolved in different areas with a same or similar environment in terms of climate, resources, geology, etc.

2- The diferent forms of the med race apeared in each territory in an independent form, each one evolving from local UP races. The mediterrean race as a race with an unique origin dont exist, mediterranean groups are only similar beacuse of ambiental adaptation.

I think the original poster is using "UP races" as in Cro-Magnon races. I'm meaning UP in that context alone, but also that Mediterraneans must eventually share some common origin and not evolving from local branches from whatever basis.

[Cromlech]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

I think the original poster is using "UP races" as in Cro-Magnon races. I'm meaning UP in that context alone, but also that Mediterraneans must eventually share some common origin and not evolving from local branches from whatever basis.

Yes. I think that all mediterraneans varieties must share a common origin. If not, how we can explain the fact that is quite dificult to diferenciate the mediterranean skulls among them and whit the nordic skulls? I think it can´t be simply a casuality.
I think that all mediterraneans and nordics have a common neolithic ancestors coming from the East. They werent a very big mass of people, they were only a minority group, but beacuse their phisical characteristics were better in this territories, they expanded their genes related with this facts. So, with the time, the mediterranean race become the predominant race in some lands, such as Spain and southern Italy.

[Galaico]

It isn't chance, it is selective pressure. People with a very close genetic makeup can express different phenotypes due to factors such as weather conditions or diet.

Mediterraneans in Spain are just Iberians of UP or Mesolithic stock adapted to littoral living conditions, while Berids and other Coon's UP types in Spain are exactly the same people adapted to interior living conditions.

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Galaico

It isn't chance, it is selective pressure. People with a very close genetic makeup can express different phenotypes due to factors such as weather conditions or diet.

No two phenotypes are ever the same, but weather conditions will never have the sufficient effect to change from an UP type to Med or vice versa. Morphological types reflect ancient accretions to the genepool of a population, after that it is simply a matter of genetic drift and dominance.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

No two phenotypes are ever the same, but weather conditions will never have the sufficient effect to change from an UP type to Med or vice versa. Morphological types reflect ancient accretions to the genepool of a population, after that it is simply a matter of genetic drift and dominance.

Might be, very little is known about the genes that determine the phenotype of a person. Not my opinion though.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

No two phenotypes are ever the same, but weather conditions will never have the sufficient effect to change from an UP type to Med or vice versa.

On the shorter term, I don't think that he was thinking of two such extreme cases as a Cromagnoid and an Aurignacoid derivatives.

On the longer term, this is not only possible but it is also possible with more extreme different types, of different races.

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Menydh

On the longer term, this is not only possible but it is also possible with more extreme different types, of different races.

So you are saying that f.e. in thousands of years a transition from UP to Med could take place? If so, what makes you think this could be the case?

[Menydh]

I'm not saying that. You using "UP" instead of "Cromagnoid" is confusing.

[Amorsite]

Originally Posted by Menydh

I'm not saying that. You using "UP" instead of "Cromagnoid" is confusing.

so what are saying?

[Cromlech]

Originally Posted by Amorsite

No two phenotypes are ever the same, but weather conditions will never have the sufficient effect to change from an UP type to Med or vice versa. Morphological types reflect ancient accretions to the genepool of a population, after that it is simply a matter of genetic drift and dominance.

I think the same. I think that the principal factor that show us that the mediterraneans of Spain cant be product of a local evolution is the fact that is quite dificult to diferenciate a med skull of a nordic skull, and viceversa. This suggest a common origin.