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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
The "Peopleland" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Does she have a problem with "Mother Russia",too? Ireland is thought of as female as well. Perhaps nations should be neutered now as gender itself is quickly becoming un-PC. Some people have very little to worry about if this is the sort of trivial nonsense that keeps them awake at night.
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
As a male, I feel discriminated that in Spain we use Patria (motherland), and not fatherland. We should use something neutral for males, females, and transexuals alike. Oh.. and not to forget the immigrants who might feel offended since the concept does not include them.
 On a serious note, that woman needs a good man who takes care of her. Healthy sex and spanks would work out wonders. Whoever let her out of the kitchen.. 
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.'  We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. –Plato–
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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AW: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
I agree with what Mr. Uwe Scheuch said, there are more important things women's politics should be concerned with. This is just a circus and makes no sense. It's just stupid, to want to replace "Vaterland", which has been and still is a word Germans quite often use to describe their country. Besides, gramatically speaking, das Vaterland is a neuter.
I've noticed though some people also refer to their countries using the feminine - "she", and that's quite often. I think it's quite normal, it has a psychological connotation - "motherland", "fatherland" = one's native land, where one's origins lay. In German there is also "Mutterland" (a neuter), but this is used in some different contexts, for example when mentioning things: "das Mutterland des Kapitalismus", the motherland of capitalism (where capitalism originated). or as a mother-country, when speaking of colonialism and ethnic Germans.
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
Yes, but that's besides the point. Women are being victimised because of this, goddammit!
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: AW: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.' We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. –Plato–
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
Well, its always nice to see how our politicians care for the most important problems our people have. Its in time that they do something, all people had enough of that sexism in the busted anthem...
However, its interesting, but isnt patria in Latin fatherland? Thats at least the German translation...motherland exists too in German, it refers to all people which come from the German ethnic group and which see their motherland, the land where they come from, in Germany even if the live in Russia, Romania etc. which some might even accept as fatherland - but not as motherland.
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Magna Europa est patria nostra STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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AW: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
I'd rather translate patria with fatherland instead of motherland, doesn't it relate to pater, patris (father) after all?
Here's something I found concerning etymology: Quote:
This word is encountered in similar forms, in many languages: Quote:
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
Probably Spanish is different from original Latin if its about that?
However, as for matrilinear societies I propose the theory that they were sedentary warrior farmers mostly. Thats important - sedentary, children and mothers stay at home, but warriors are often away for along times. This means that the basic structure was oftentimes for very long times in the hands of the women and the women had to work together if the men were away, so that it was better that related women made up the core with their children than related men. The strictly patriarchal and patrilinear orientation came mainly with mobile warrior groups, both seminomadic farmers and herders, like the Indoeeuropeans were mostly (though they partly switched between parti- and matrilinear but kept the patriarchal structure) of that kind and spread a very good organised and almost ideal structure and way of thinking at that evolutionary level. So Indoeeuropeans really changed the way of thinking of some formerly more mythical oriented groups which were weak because of their identity related to the Earth and weather more than in IE, typical peasantry. In the mobile warrior groups the male warrior was dominant usually (exceptions exist) and always present, so it was a different condition from sedentary groups, the whole family was on the way, moved and the father was there to make decisions and to work with other males together especially if its about the herd, the defence and control of it. They need to plan, to think about the future more and had to belong to each other in a more strict group, with strong norms and requirements for the group member. So Indoeuropean really means more than just the spreading of a racial type though this was involved too, it was an idea of people, at least partly free from a weak superstition and bound together in an ideal of blood and related male warrior groups. Just ideal for that time and important for later spiritual developments before Christianity and partly even in Christianity. Unfortunately both the racial type and the way of thinking works better in such more mobile groups than in peasants which have to stand ground and undergo miserable conditions in the first place, so mainly in the aristocracy that spirit and partly even blood survived. It became again dominant especially in Germany were the bourgeois was more oriented towards the idealised German aristocracy than elsewhere... But parti- and matrilinearity is finally just a question of organisation. Similar things happened unfortunately after the World Wars when the men were not present and females had to take the full responsibility in the homelands. That destroyed the already weakened structures to a high degree and changed the relations. We can assume similar things in ancient societies too.
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Magna Europa est patria nostra STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM! Last edited by Agrippa; Wednesday, September 28th, 2005 at 16:23.
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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AW: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
I think the translation may have to do with the fact that in Romance languages these words are of the feminine gender - e.g. in French it is "la patrie", in Romanian it is "patria", in Spanish it is "la patria" (the noun "patria" is itself feminine in Latin - "patria, -ae" though it derives from a "masculine word") and the feminine is automatically associated with the mother.
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
Mynydd is obviously thinking of Madre-ia instead of Padre-ia
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
Wasn't Gaia a cult of mother earth? It sounds logical since it's the mother that give birth to a child, not the father. And that's the mother country that saw you born (la mère patrie). Anyway, the origin is the same.
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"Their trumpets again are of a peculiar barbarian kind; they blow into them and produce a harsh sound which suits the tumult of war."
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Wednesday, September 28th, 2005
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Re: Austrian national anthem 'sexist'
In Spanish it is usual to refer to her as Madre Patria. However, in Latin there might have been a hybridisation of ideas with the Old European cult to the Mother Goddess and the Indo-European cult to the Father God. Also, I believe that the Marian cult is a remnant of the Old European religious beliefs in Christianism. This obviously would have had to go from the Old European beliefs to the Indo-Europeans (rather, mixed Old + Indos), and then into Christianism. Anyway, this is what the dictionary says about patrius, -a, -um and.. derivatives? Quote:
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